SS Prototype Dagger by Alcoso

[gerrit]

Hi Larry,

my 2 cents:

the building quality is very good, i cant see anything wrong with that.
But i remember a great looking justice sword, where all members here after my post, (except 1) were very fond of........that one is build with the high quality standards of German craftmanship.....that doesnt proof anything...
It costed me a few K

if your looking at the reference material of Craig on his website ( sold item), you will see the same justice sword as i have....AND SOLD AS ORIGINAL.

So as long as there is no documentation found either at alcoso or some letter conversation with Himmler kept in a private collection, this dagger is "Only" one of the exsisting prototypes that cant be proven as an Original, despite how beautiful they are made.

Cheers,
Ger

[dramos]

Larry,

Thank you for that! This hobby has taught me a lot and shown me a lot of pieces that I would have passed off as fake or 4th reich, but its also taught me to not take anything at face value. So this dagger is assumed legitimate because of its quality and the fact that the same dagger was found so many years apart? Was there a story that came with the daggers, as to where it was originally picked up or how the veteran originally got it? Has there ever been fakes produced of this dagger, or has its rarity prevented the fakers from creating a copy?

[Larry C]

Hi Gerrit I understand your concerns and anyone else who may have doubts but the best course to gather more information would actually to speak with the seasoned gentlemen at the GDC who know this dagger.. This history of it... And the hands it passed through until it ended up with John Pepera. There is an ongoing thread happening there now as I feel they could answer any questions of doubt. John Pepera and Robert Waites are a little before my collecting time ...but for reassurance the Boys at the GDC could help answer. You will have to scroll down a bit until the topic comes up. Regards Larry

John Pepera - GermanDaggers.com

[Jeronimo]

Gerrit and Larry,
I can see both of your points of view.
Personally, from what I know about John Pepera, he would not have something if he wasn't satisfied of its originality.
We had an interesting discussion about SS Sportschule Fuerth etched daggers, his example and mine.
Also about available photos, records and documentation backing up the location and the dates.
As I said, I knew him to be very thorough.
I don't know Craig personally and have not dealt with him, what I know about him is mostly from his website, so I'll leave my opinion to myself.
But Gerrit makes a very valid point about reproductions. I've seen beautiful (fake) etched Luft swords sold as original (in Antwerp in the late 90's).
Also different prototype daggers, where sometimes it's an obvious fake, based on certain political or military events.
And other times, you can almost feel the authenticity of materials, the aesthetic appearance of the item.
But until a period photo shows up, or documentation, it's a leap of faith!!

However, I know the example in TJ's book. It has always sparked my interest, and seeing these nicely detailed photos makes it even more desirable.
The worksmanship is absolutely superb. The price would be astronomical.
Again, where is the providence or paperwork to back up the existence of this item, placing it in the TR period? We might never know.....

Jerry

[timothy]

My knowledge on SS daggers ain't too good only had about maybe two real ones in all the years so I don't doubt you boys on them however I read a article on this type of thing here while back and it caught my attention it was called Dissecting a Fraud by a Collector Ad Royster Internet listed adroystermilitaria.com anyway it definetly makes sense on some things and exposes some of the old crooked dealers in past years to my surprise some of them are still around. Not saying this dagger has anything to do with that but it is worth reading. timothy

[Wagriff]

Royster makes a lot of sense in his discussions of the high end fakes out there. He has little to no respect for Any of the "big names" and has plenty of fun pointing out their foibles! Unfortunately, one comes away from reading his website with the impression that there is literally No genuine items at All out there! And if there Is, there is no way to tell them from the fakes! He mentions, for example, that Bundeswehr Naval caps were made Identical to the wartime era caps, so if someone changes the insignia-a simple process-how can you tell?

[timothy]

Yeah that is a good description of his articles Wagriff agree it does get confusing to most of us. But as you say his articles make a lot of sense especially on the high end stuff and all the money to be made in it. After reading his article funny thing about the KM stuff I posted some of it and about all the guys said OK but reapplied Insignia or you got no response at all I had all of it on here and got good response. But on one forum about all they could cry was BM with TR insignia so Who Knows? Good reason I avoid most of it unless a no brainer piece. Thanks timothy

[tailor marc]

Wow, i love everything about this dagger. Got to love that detail. Im no expert but this is a beauty

[Larry C]

This is one of these rarities that was not thrown together with a handful of parts and called real. Every detail was thought out and measured. Im sure if Germany would of won the war..the Prototype SS dagger would be common SS leaders dagger...and all other branches and institutions would of followed suit with there dagger upgrades. The NSKK High leaders dagger prototype was another such beauty I believe featured on the cover of Tom Johnsons 7th Reference. Regards Larry

[Wagriff]

It would be interesting to know the History of this dagger. As a Prototype, it likely was never Issued, and yet the prototype Hanger for it looks Very aged and worn! Did someone actually carry this piece??