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Very cool early SS dagger

Article about: This dagger is a real treat to see. It is one of the few early SS daggers we see that was equipped with solid nickel fittings, but also with a nickel/chrome plating over that nickel! Check i

  1. #31

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    There are corresponding time period/manufacturing versions for SS daggers of these posted SA daggers that show the same kind of construction. Being the earlier nickel plated malleable iron substitute for nickel silver. Heavy nickel plating that unfortunately did not stop internal corrosion from the socket area spreading outward - due to a technical/technological problem. And the reason a significant fraction of the plated component daggers have gotten PW nickel silver replacements either from dealers or owners that had been taken from other daggers. The earlier daggers much more of a problem in finding replacements than the later zinc die cast types because of the way that they were made. What makes this more interesting and relevant to the topic IMO is that in spite of the corrosion you don’t see the missing plating that would have been on top of where the rust/pitting are located. But other than that one of the examples looks virtually new. So new that it still has what appears to be its factory tag. As for the wood grips aspect of the discussion I also found some good pictures from a dealer that I think would be the best ones to use. But am not sure if he would be OK with my posting them. So I may have to do some more work a little later when I get a chance. Best Regards, Fred
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Very cool early SS dagger   Very cool early SS dagger  


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  3. #32

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    Quote by Title King View Post
    I think the wear looks like I would expect on the subject dagger, considering other plated daggers I've seen with flaking.

    Fred--returning to the grip, i still want to see some of your early m33 grips to compare to the abrasion you point out on this one (you said to what end--this is the end, comparing and showing what you are talking about in re color above and below abrasions).
    Speaking of flaking versus wear these are not the examples that I have been looking for - but they are interesting in what they show. One being an ugly looking (pitted/worn) postwar plated M1936 3rd generation chain set that has been grafted onto a M1933 dagger scabbard. The other a parts (M1936) dagger that could have been from another M1933, that has a strange looking rippled effect plating that is showing some what looks like wear exposing the base. The grip also having some kind of extra/additional finish that is flaking off in places. Best Regards, Fred
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Very cool early SS dagger   Very cool early SS dagger  


  4. #33
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    Forget all this hussle about wear and flaking.

    Question to be answered is following:

    Why would there be an option to upgrade it with chrome plating if the nickel silver fittings would be shiny equaly as chrome when it came from the factory....

    Why go in depth about wear when there is no sensible need to plate the fittings periodly?

    Why ask again and again about the grip and it wear when the chrome plating cant be explained.
    That grip simply has been taken care of...

    When are we fed up with sales tales and explanations that cant stand any logical explanation?

    Ger

  5. #34

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    Ger--I think your point here is probably the most important and most interesting. Simply put, original plating comes off after nearly a century.

    I do believe plating came over solid nickel, on occasion, but I agree it probably was not an "upgrade," but rather a variation that occurred during the the period when plating was just coming into production. My thought is that while a company assembled some of its earliest plated pieces, the supply of solid nickel guards was not yet exhausted so they went ahead and plated those guards as the production process was already set for plating. I could be wrong but this is my favorite explanation as I believe these pieces, SS and SA were produced with all sorts of fittings, plated with different materials over different materials.

  6. #35
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    Quote by Title King View Post
    Ger--I think your point here is probably the most important and most interesting. Simply put, original plating comes off after nearly a century.

    I do believe plating came over solid nickel, on occasion, but I agree it probably was not an "upgrade," but rather a variation that occurred during the the period when plating was just coming into production. My thought is that while a company assembled some of its earliest plated pieces, the supply of solid nickel guards was not yet exhausted so they went ahead and plated those guards as the production process was already set for plating. I could be wrong but this is my favorite explanation as I believe these pieces, SS and SA were produced with all sorts of fittings, plated with different materials over different materials.
    The plated guards were made of zinkguss what gives them a dull grey appearance, that was nothing like the nickel silver guards of the initial production, they plated them to give them the same appearance as the NS guards.
    Production should be made cheaper and with less expensive materials, as they were needed for the war effort.
    So it would be absurd to plate the perfectly shiny nickel silver guards.

    You have to come up with something better to convince me.
    Plating a NS guard is entirely not in line with the German way of production.

    Ger

  7. #36

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    not everyone will agree, but what I'm saying is that when the zinc and other base metals were coming in, the plating process would have been put in place; at that time, maybe solid nickel guards were left over and just thrown into the process.

    Similar "left over" argument explains the ! SS daggers, produced late in the period with solid nickel guards. To each their own. Thanks for your thoughts Gerrit.

  8. #37
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    Quote by Title King View Post
    Similar "left over" argument explains the ! SS daggers, produced late in the period with solid nickel guards. To each their own. Thanks for your thoughts Gerrit.
    I wonder why these arent plated also…….

    I agree we disagree

    Ger

  9. #38

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    Just curious what do you think about the ! Daggers? As in why are they solid at later production? Genuinely curious for research!

  10. #39

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    Quote by Title King View Post
    Just curious what do you think about the ! Daggers? As in why are they solid at later production? Genuinely curious for research!
    I’ve looked to the Imperial era first as a general guide to German industrial practices. Then to some period documentation, and more or less datable examples (the SS documentation has no special listing).

    That set aside for a moment - for many years dealers and collectors argued that the colored (not white) dagger grips were special orders and even that the orange ones were for General Officers. Not so, just a myth. And part of the answer is already here.

    The “humper” M1936 I posted with the SA-gau marked crossguard. In other words postwar. As for nickel plating it can become separated from an iron/steel base metal - because nickel plating is more or less porous depending on its thickness that can allow moisture to penetrate it. And there are some other technical considerations.

    That said, while I have never had one in hand I think that it’s possible that in the transition phase from nickel silver to steel/malleable iron that some limited number of already completed dagger steel fittings scabbards could have been mated to a dagger(s) with nickel plated nickel silver crossguards - so that everything matched. But they could have just as easily been put on SA daggers mated with plated hardware on the scabbards!! As for the transition dates that is a harder to define issue because not everybody did everything at the same exact time. But I think that the M1936 daggers, although not dated, can be and some have been compared to other daggers as a work in progress. Best Regards, Fred

  11. #40

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    I once owned a M33 SS Böker that was a ground Röhm which was numbered to an NCO which was identified by Ross K. The main problem with it was the crossguards had been chrome plated. I sent it to Tom Wittmann for his opinion and was told that on occasion he had found an occasional
    SS Dagger with chromed guards that he believed was done in the period but that there was no explanation why this would have been done.

    So the end result is you're left with a dagger that may be period (depending on whom you ask) but is widely considered less desirable because of the enexplicable plating. And even with an affidavit from the vet who brought it back, there are some will never believe was done pre-1945. Sad but true and I experienced it myself.

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