Japanese sword ID

[AZPhil]

i found a page showing the family crest. Steve is quite right, thats what it is. it just suprises me to see it on so many places on the sword, instead of the small silver disk i'm use to seeing. the page i found shows the exact crest, but it shows the same crest for a different family too. put curser on the crest to get the info.
my crest is in the top line about center, and again in the 3rd row right.. whats the deal ?
Crests 1

The Mon's are the same Family ( One joined the other and took up his mon)
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akamatsu_Norimura]Akamatsu Norimura - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url


SWEEEEET SWORD SIR!!!!!

[guntojim]

This is a colonial empire sword, in this case from Korea as identified by the 5-7-5 bud pattern on the kiri emblem. These were carried by Japanese officials assigned to the administration of Korea. This is a sonin or mid-level piece equivalent to seccond lieutenant thru colonel . Jim

[AZPhil]

This site has always been useful .
Might be army if not the colonial.
I can't tell fom the pic but maybe you can
JAPANESE MILITARY SWORDS - I

[Andrew]

thank you guys very much. i think i have to go with it being a colonial occupation sword for Korea with the leather scabbard and brass mounts, instead of the cromed scabbard. though it looks alot like the russo-japanese style. i have seen loads of army and police parade swords, but never one like this. so i think its not a common dress sword.
looking around i found the navy model would have a back strap on the grip with out the emblems on the side of the grip. the army version has the emblems on the side like mine. any one have a guess on value ?
andrew

[AZPhil]

Colonial sure puts that in a narrow window for a collector.

I did find a Naval Kyo Gunto on SFI that somebody was trying to sell for $500 (your sword looks much better)and then there is a Army Command saber on Sanmei and they want 120,000 Yen $1.3K and change.

And this Thing that has seen better days
https://www.militaryitems.com/produc...&featured&js=n

[Andrew]

thanks Phil.
ya that sword you linked is in rough shape indeed. i noticed that it only had the insignia on the grip. not all over the place on the scabbard like mine.
thank you for all the help guys.
andrew

[drdata]

Digging up an older thread. In doing some research I located Paulownia mon for PM that does in fact match the 7 leave crest on this sword:

Paulownia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But still confused as to how the PM and the Akamatsu could have the same mon.

A google book clip on family mons confirms a tie in to the two samurai families on the chart Andrew provided:

Samurai Heraldry - Google Books

Here is a 16th century helmet with the 5 leaf mon, which has to predate the PM, yes?

Antique Japanese Samurai Kabuto Helmet late 17th C (item #353960, detailed views)

This link shows variations on the samurai mon:

paulownia Fireflies Sing

" Plant charges are by default round and smooth; the pawlonia is a classic case. There are two main representations for the pendant leaves; smooth (default) and with sawtoothed edges (the variation). Those plants displaying this departure from the norm are called “oni,” (= devil) plants. A smooth pawlonia would be simply “kiri,” and a jagged one “oni-kiri.” The number of blossoms on pawlonia is also important; there is the five-three variety (“go-san no kiri”) and the seven-five variety (“shichi-go no kiri”). In Japanese, these are all distinct designs, but within the confines of SCA heraldry, they are identical.
"


Some interesting BG here also:

Imagawa Yoshimoto (Japanese Daimyo)

And nice to know I can get a matching coffee cup:

Goshichi no kiri coffee mugs from Zazzle.com

And lastly:

"The kiri mon is one of the two imperial crests, the other being the kiku ("chrysanthemum"). The kiri is represented either with five and seven blossoms {go-shichi no kiri), which is the imperial form, or with five and three blossoms, generally the form used by other families of Japan. "The imperial kiri mon seems to have been of very ancient use, and was conferred as a subsidiary mon upon the great Minamoto warrior Yoshiiye, perhaps better known by his youthful name of Hachimantaro. Yoshiiye died in 1108, but the badge was transmitted as kayemon ('subsidiary badge') to several great military families descended from him, who flourished during the five succeeding centuries. These were the Hatakeyama, the Hosokawa, the Imagawa, the Nitta, the Shiba, and the Yamana, the last-named bearing it as a jomon ('fixed badge'). Moreover, seventeen daimyo families of Tokugawa times bore the badge as kayemon, and one, the So of Tsushima, as jomon; besides four kuge families, and lastly the great Hideyoshi himself, who bore both imperial mon, Paulownia, and chrysanthemum, and even presented surcoats bearing them to favored vassals. This should suffice to demonstrate that the presence of the imperial badge on any work of art in no wise implies any connection with the august line of the Son of Heaven.""







regards

[bontay]

Hi, I'm new to your forum. I have a similar sword, can some one help me ID it and place a value on it? I would like to sell it but not sure of the best way to go about it. Thanks, John

[Walkwolf]

Nice sword, Andrew !

More 'up-scale' than is usually seen in this pattern.

[Raymond LaBar]

thanks Phil.
ya that sword you linked is in rough shape indeed. i noticed that it only had the insignia on the grip. not all over the place on the scabbard like mine.
thank you for all the help guys.
andrew

Hi Andrew,
I was looking around on the web and found this article. So my question is, do you still have it and if so maybe you could send me an email, thank you.
rlabar@windstream.net