Second Pattern Senior Forestry Officials Model 1903

[Bruce Pennington]

Sorry, was busy writing the flag story. I am not sure what that dagger is, as the new uniform regs for Forestry Officials dated 1903 December 28th show the following with a different scabbard configuration.

Nick,

I'm sure that was the original design. Fuller calls this pattern "Second 1903 pattern", pg 180-181. He has a pic just like this guys dirk.

[Nick Komiya]

I am not sure what that author means by second type, as they surely could not have had two types for the same rank in 1903. To me it was either a case of mistaken ID or mistaken model generation. The insignia is also quite different, so I will rule out that being a 1903 Forester's model.

[ghp95134]

Geoff's dagger looks like the illustration on the far right ...
奏任署長
Sōnin Shochō

May be of interest (and I don't know if this is accurate or not):
Found a hat for the Kobayashi-ku Sōnin Shochō

軍人用に劣らぬ高級品　奏任官＝陸海軍で云う少尉以上　前章は総金線「金モール」を使用した大型の桜花「径 4cm」に海軍士官用の軍帽前章と同一の抱茗荷をあしらったした形状　前章の大きさは台座含む縦5.5× 横6.5cm　鉢巻部分に太い金線2条「警察官正帽の警部補以上に使用する金線と同様の物」付　天井部～鉢巻部分は黒色ドスキン生地使用　号数54cm　金線の幅1.6cm×2条　天井部の後部 に径5mmの程度の小虫穴1個あるも着帽形跡は殆ど無い未使用完全品

Green text: Gold braid as used on assistant inspector of the police and above officer formal hat.

Another page with 奏任文官大礼服 Court Dress.


--Guy

[Geoff Ward]

The odd thing about this dirk is the fact that the saya has a slight curve to it almost like a miniature saber style It could easily be mistaken for a type of Naval dirk??Similar to the Cadets model dirk.

[ghp95134]

The odd thing about this dirk is the fact that the saya has a slight curve to it ...

The example at that other site shows a long curved blade as well.


--Guy

P.S. Hey guys, if I'm shooting outside my lane, let me know!

[Nick Komiya]

I only uploaded the dagger page, but the Forestry Sonin Shocho rank insignia requires 3 cherry blossoms on the throat, which you can see if you enlarge the dagger drawing. Also there should be no cherry blossom on the grip for it to be forestry. The drawings are final designs signed by the emperor, so there is no chance at all that what you have is a 1903 Forestry model. Any chance that the scabbard was changed for some reason?

[Geoff Ward]

I would have to say it would not be impossible... however due to the fit and alignment of the parts there is no binding or odd fit of the dirk in the saya??

[Geoff Ward]

Perhaps there is a clue in the motif of the engraving on the backstrap??

[Geoff Ward]

There appear to be six main leaves and two smaller leaves or blossoms I dont know if there is a significance to this or if it is just decorative?? it just has such a Naval appearance about it... really puzzling

[Nick Komiya]

If you decide on a "time frame" and "organization", I can check uniform regulations for that combination, but otherwise the search grid is too wide and I'd like to get back to writing. Also getting the organization's name in Japanese will help immensely, as English names are close to useless. We can easily end up calling two different organizations, "Forestry".