Second Pattern Senior Forestry Officials Model 1903

[Geoff Ward]

Still digging and leaning toward Naval..Perhaps late Meji early Showa it looks a lot like the Cadets Dirk with a few minor differences such as the number of wire wraps on the grio, lack of the screw on the lower backstrap, the difference on the sakura mekugi screw and a difference of the decoration near the kabuto...

[Geoff Ward]

Here is the really odd part... The saya has a sori if you will??

[ghp95134]

Here is the really odd part... The saya has a sori if you will??

Damp leather will form to the shape of the dagger/pistol. I have made leather holsters and have no problem "modeling" (modelling for our European readers) the leather to the pistol. I've not done a curved knife sheath, but I have no doubt it will form to the shape of the blade.

--Guy

[Nick Komiya]

Just for your reference. I flipped the dagger so it faces same side as the drawings

[Geoff Ward]

Well, we now have reached the conclusion that this is DEFINITELY NOT a Second Pattern Senior Forestry Officials Model 1903.Not everything in books is always set in stone. The quest continues... I still am thinking Late Meji Early Showa Naval.Perhaps the Suya (if this is the Suya Trademark) might be able to put a more definite time period with this piece if any info exists? I appreciate all the help Regards,Geoff

[Geoff Ward]

Guy, Thank you for the information you posted about the damp leather conforming to an item.That made sense so when I got home I examined the dirk's saya. What I had thought at first were wooden scabbard runners turned out to be an actual wooden saya covered with the skin wrap.I have been back and forth on the Ohmura Gunto website and although there were many similarities in the cadet dirk section I was unable to find an example with a curved saya???

[Geoff Ward]

Another pic from a Japanese website of a similar dagger this time in the gold finish.. still no cigar.Any Ideas on where else to turn? Was there a Wildlife and Fisheries organization or something along those lines? Just grabbing at straws.Any suggestions welcome.Regards,Geoff

[Bruce Pennington]

Geoff, just a thought - having seen the ever growing variations in gunto and Kai-gunto due to the ability to personalize a sword by picking lesser or more expensive options, not to mention the specially made koshirae for family blades - I would not be surprised in the least if this were not something of the sort, a variant of the civilian forestry dirk, custom made to fit this blade.

[Nick Komiya]

In contrast I would be extremely surprised, as you simply don't fiddle with your rank insignia.

[Bruce Pennington]

In contrast I would be extremely surprised, as you simply don't fiddle with your rank insignia.

Nick, honest question then, what do you think about IJA officers with civilian tsuba on gunto, or kamon, or "worse" carrying a totally civilian katana? I've seen war photos of these and more. It WAS done, whether it was part of the emporer's "type" order or not.