This has made me wonder now -- How EXACTLY did Japanese, during WWII, pronounce these key words? (tsuba, tsuka, koshirae, etc)
This has made me wonder now -- How EXACTLY did Japanese, during WWII, pronounce these key words? (tsuba, tsuka, koshirae, etc)
Romania was spelt Rumania.by DaveR
From SteveM at NMB:
“ Posted Today, 04:50 PM
The native Japanese romanization systems prefer the visual and organizational symmetry over the accuracy of pronunciation. The reason for this is that the Japanese systems were designed primarily from a Japanese perspective, and the main function was to allow Japanese to easily render Japanese words into English spellings.
The most immediately apparent effect is in the たちつてと line of kana, which in the Nihon/Kunrei system is written as ta, ti, tu, te, to, while in the Hepburn system it is written as ta, chi, tsu, te to. In the Nihon/Kunrei system, the emphasis is on ease and simplicity (one kana = two letters). Hence つ is rendered as tu, and ち is rendered as ti in the Japanese systems. The result is romanizations which cause inaccurate English pronunciations. In addition, it causes conflict and confusion when Japanese words end up with the same spelling as common English words. In other words, the brass band instrument "tuba" ends up with the same spelling but different pronunciation from the Japanese sword hand-guard.
So the Nihon/Kunrei system is fine for Japanese people up until about the end of elementary school, but after that, and when Japanese come into contact with foreign people, the deficiencies of the Nihon/Kunrei system become obvious, and the Hepburn system starts to get used, and indeed is used in most official documents and street signs and train station names, business documents etc.... Hence the name of one of the biggest firms in Japan is Mitsubishi instead of Mitubisi,
What I think we see in the 1930's proclamation is the effect of a creeping nationalism, and a general feeling that Japanese needn't compromise to please foreigners. Rather than use the foreign-made Hepburn system, which allows for ease of use by foreigners, it becomes preferable in 1930s Japan to use the Nihon/Kunrei system, which is supposedly easier for Japanese to use, and that the onus of figuring out how to pronounce those words accurately is on the foreigners. ”
What Nick points out is merely an old version of Romaji called "Nippon-shiki" -- that's how they did it then. Do not make any modifications now!! (^__^)
When I first learned Japanese we used the kunrei-shiki which was a modified version of the Nippon-shiki: tu instead of tsu; syo instead of sho; si instead of shi. It was confusing to many of us because we were used to the Hepburn spellings.
Example from the link above:
"To continue"
tsuzuku 続く (Hepburn)
tuduku 続く (Nihon-Shiki)
tuzuku 続く (Kunrei-Shiki)
Regardless of how you Romanize it, it is still pronounced tsuzuku.
-- Guy
They were PRONOUNCED "tsuba", "tsuka", "koshirae." It's just the spelling of the romaji [Rome (i.e. Latin) letters] that differed.
--Guy
And a 1613 English report spelt "katana" as Cattan. -- that's what the English ear heard. (^_^)
...and presently seased vpon, weare taken aside, there heades first strooke of, and then every man suffered to proue his Cattan one the Carcasses...
The Voyage of Captain John Saris to Japan, 1613
source
I fully support reading 浪人 as "loonin" or even better "lohnin", as that is actually how we pronounce it. With "Ronin", you cannot see that the "O" needs to be stretched. But on the other hand, "loonin" does run the risk of some American or Canadian pronouncing it "lewnin" like in "looney". So it's not easy.
Besides there are no "R" sounds in Japanese, so "Ronin" almost makes fun of the Japanese, who cannot distinguish between "L" and "R", hence the classic joke "How often do you have elections?", "Oh, every morning."
English pronunciation itself is not always consistent with how its written (like book and boobs), so there really can't be a bulletproof system built by borrowing from English pronunciations.
The IJA's official word for sewing thread for insignia, etc was カタン糸, pronounced Kattan-ito, which was originally just trying to say Cotton-ito. And it took me scores of years to figure out that the Japanese word for canvas, ズック, pronounced Zukku was merely the best effort Meiji era Japanese could manage of reading the English word "Duck".
I recall hearing that a South Pacific-use password used by GIs was
flat foot floozie with a floy floy
(^____^)
Seriously! It is a phrase from a 1938 song .... (floy-floy was slang for VD).
Here's the great Fred Astaire dancing to it.
-- Guy
In Dutch the double o is pronounced as in Oak, and I have some reason to believe that it was the same in 1850's English.
The vowel in Ronin is not like "Oak", but like "Law" or "Awe".
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