Unseen markings on SS buckles

[greenwave7]

Hi Guys
This is an early (relic) Overhoff & Cie. - SS RZM 24 but... if get a better glimpse on the marks (especially in UV (bluettes) & IR (pink) pics) You can notice: SS runes near 24 mark and some chipers (2,35) near the RZM logo intreastings marks (I think...)for the kind of buckle, don't you? (some other minus marks are in, but not very clear to understand: too much "relic stuff" )

HI ALL I HAVE GIVEN THIS ITS OWN THREAD TO KEEP THE SS MAKERS THREAD JUST FOR INFO

[greenwave7]

AFTER 48h of "restoration" with some specific 6.1 ph fluid, note dthe previous diff. Attachment 153046

[David North]

An interesting notion, however and with all due respect, I do not think so.

Nickle silver SS stamped on the lip RZM 24 - no more and no less.

As you know, Overhoff und Cie., Lüdenscheid.

As a matter of interest, I hold an SA buckle with exactly the same well documented markings.

Regards,

David

[greenwave7]

Hi David,
I agree completely with you but (trust me!) we can tlak about a very early production so it's very intreasting to discover how the confusion of a sandard mark was in this period ergo IR e UV lenght waves are so useful to discover this "clues" sometime (I found this kind of "storical mistakes" in several buckles, not only in SS buckles) infact the factories try to cleaning this "unregular" marks after the "standardizing process", that's all for now
Andrea

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

Hi David,
I agree completely with you but (trust me!) we can tlak about a very early production so it's very intreasting to discover how the confusion of a sandard mark was in this period ergo IR e UV lenght waves are so useful to discover this "clues" sometime (I found this kind of "storical mistakes" in several buckles, not only in SS buckles) infact the factories try to cleaning this "unregular" marks after the "standardizing process", that's all for now
Andrea

It is indeed an early production. Indeed several buckles from Overhoff (and others) had at that period their previous marking erased then replaced with a more apropriate marking. But a marking with SS runes was introduced AFTER the RZM 24 codification and NOT before. There is indeed some Overhoff marked RZM SS 35/36 where remains of the former RZM 24 can still be seen, but it is impossible to see an erased marking which was introduced later. I do not dispute there could be a prior erased marking (like David I personnaly do not see anything) but in that case the erased marking is either "O&C ges.gesch" (several variants of lettering / fonts), either "OVERHOFF & CIE . / LUDENSCHIED GES. GESCH. (two lines marking). I let you coment which one it could be.

[greenwave7]

Hi All,
I agree with all of us but...'bout concerining the confusional state of Historical period/standardization marks production (ref. Angolia & Nash books also) images talk more than words don't you?

Andrea

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

Hi All,
I agree with all of us but...'bout concerining the confusional state of Historical period/standardization marks production (ref. Angolia & Nash books also) images talk more than words don't you?

Andrea

As the SS chapter is concerned, Nash book worth nothing and Angolia's is too basic. Anyway, confusion or not, when your buckle was made there was absolutely NO direct orders made by the SS since the SS did not have purchasing offices yet. Then when they started to have their own offices and started to place their orders directly, the RZM 24 was already illegal to display. So, possibility to have obvious SS runes ADDED to the previous RZM 24 marking could be perfectly legitimate but having SS runes erased is not part of the possibilities. Images should indeed talk more than words but I personnaly do not see what you are seeing. It is absolutely not uncommon to make mistakes with such damaged items since damaged areas are numerous and lead to believe we see letters / symbols which are in fact alterated others...
If you read Nash, you will see a buckle (overstamped RZM 57) that I "thought" to see have been marked MüK but which was in fact MW. The last W had but modified to look like a üK just by scratches and ... my mind!

[Ben Evans]

Andrea, I have been following this thread with interest and to be honest I have to agree with both David and JP, from the pics you have shown I do not see any SS markings or numbers. Hopefully one day, a buckle will appear with the markings and another hidden seceret will be let out to the world. As a collector I like to listen to all points of view and read the facts, thats when I normally make my mind up and decide on whether info that has been stated is indeed correct or incorrect. JP has long been a champion of the SS buckle and from detective work has produced knowledge that has never been known before, he has provided invaluable information for SS buckle collectors all over the world. David has his own niche, pre war buckles, SA and HJ (just to name a few) and with that has a wealth of knowledge and years of hands on experience with buckles. I will ask around some collector friends of mine and ask them to scrutinise their SS collection and maybe some more information will come about ref the SS markings? But do keep up the research as I for one find it interesting and having more guys on board to prove or disprove theories is much better in my eyes

[greenwave7]

Hi Guys (JP, DAVID, BEN etcetc)
I'm really happy to read your expert opinions (unfortunately I'm not an expert as you ), mine was only a study/challenge "to investigate" some new clues on buckle and (I repeat) I AGREE with all of US but...as JP noticed NASH has a RZM 57 with gesch. ges. + M... marks (almost deleted). My cuoriosity bring me to study the buckle metal/leather parts in IR e UV ranges 'cause sometime (not ever) we can see hidden things: collecting buckle is quite simple but discover news is quite exciting and abegge my interetsing on this argument. With your (huge) collection try with some UV led lamp or black light and IR led lamp to investigate... trust me

[greenwave7]

...for example...another early SS relic that I had is an Overhoff & Cie. as you can see form the attaches in UV range (bluette pics) you can notice an embossed "8" and in the IR range (the others little pics) we can see the impressed number "9" (or "6" I don't know the right orientation...) over/under the "OVERHOFF" mark. Under the prongs bar (the bar isn't original I know, 'cause it's a restoration brass piece) we can see several impressed numbers not all clear. I don't know the mening of this hiddens marks but itì's a fact: they are in

Andrea