M42- Camo.

[DougB]

Thanks for clearing that up Gaz, I know there is a community of "restorers" out there, some people call them by other names, plying their trade and making their product better which in the long run hurts the hobby. I wasn't sure if this was such a topic or not.

Restorers sometimes mark their work and no I wasn't assuming you were selling it but time moves on, as you say life is short and this helmet will be in someone else's hands one day.

Cheers
Doug

PS - I agree topics can sometimes be contentious with respect to German (I prefer this term than Nazi) helmets, or any militaria. It is all faked from buttons to bomb casings unfortunately.

[HARRY THE MOLE]

Perhaps if we left these tin lids unpainted and in complete bare metal state they may be more acceptable to some. Better still, scrap the lot and just keep a pool of 'real' helmets in circulation. Now who wants to borrow my genuine (untouched) Austrian M17 DD transitional and my M35?

[DougB]

Perhaps if we left these tin lids unpainted and in complete bare metal state they may be more acceptable to some. Better still, scrap the lot and just keep a pool of 'real' helmets in circulation. Now who wants to borrow my genuine (untouched) Austrian M17 double decal transitional and my M35?

I am not sure what you mean Harry and I certainly am not looking to fence with anyone here. A nice no decal factory painted M42 shell can be a nice collecting piece for someone who wants an inexpensive piece of authentic WW2 history for a display. Why ruin it with a post war liner and a lousy camo scheme?

I can see someone taking a beat to crap M42 shell and dropping a tatty period liner in it and sending it to someone like Rex (aka Ruffin) for a decent Normandy camo scheme - he marks and posts his restorations on 2 other forums - for a filler helmet at $300 vs $3000 for the real deal.

You had mentioned no decal helmets were disappearing because fakers were applying SS decals to them, I agree and restorers and fakers are also painting them up in droves as well.

Anyway all is well. Cheers
Doug

[HARRY THE MOLE]

Hi Doug,
I'm not having a go at you! But by some of the replie's it would seem that if you have a shell and try to make something of it (due in some part to its condition) it then becomes a fake and has no historical value. So by the same token, if I have a shell - with possibly with no paint on it, and I leave it in that state it is an historical artifact. So the best thing to do is melt all the crap down and just keep the good stuff.

I realise that my style of putting my view across must upset a lot of people. I love history, I love historical items of any type. I agree it is best to have the 'untouched' items - if you can obtain or afford them. But where I disagree is on this notion that no-one should restore old and otherwise unwanted helmet-shells. There IS a market for them amongst collectors. Would it be better to say to some youngster starting out on collecting that they shouldn't bother with a restored helmet and should save up for several years until they can afford an untouched item? Or is it better to encourage them in their collecting? Or how about someone in a poorly paid job. Do you tell them they shouldn't bother collecting because they will never be able to afford the good stuff? Or do you offer them an alternative? Owning a repro or a 'restored' item can spur you on to replace it with a better quality item. Museums are full of items that have been restored, but no-one suggests they should get rid of them.

People should get over it and get a life, you collect what you want to collect - and it doesn't matter what others may think about it. I wouldn't dream of passing off any restored helmets as the real thing. What happens to them when I'm dead is not my problem, knowing my family they couldn't seperate the valuable stuff from the other stuff anyway!

Harry.

[DougB]

Hi Doug,
What happens to them when I'm dead is not my problem, knowing my family they couldn't seperate the valuable stuff from the other stuff anyway!

Harry.

Harry no worries mate. People can spend their hard earned money on dead flies, its their money after all. I know some guys collect nothing but purpose made reproductions as they cannot afford the real deal, young collectors, etc I fully understand that. I dont think your reading my posts clearly.

But here is where you and I differ. Real shells, when repainted and fully restored, will have a life after you are gone and in my opinion lose their historical value. It is something we will have to agree to disagree on.

A real life example of this was the passing of Phil Miller. Many of his helmets were full on restoration repaints that the family was trying to sell at untouched prices. They equated the value of a fully restored helmet like the value of a fully restored classic car.

So using your quip -- just melt any restorations down -- , can be reversed. Lets fully restore the helmets to brand new condition including repaint, relinering and redecalling them, was the motivation for this particular collection. Need a rare Reichswehr helmet, no problem. Buy a transitional shell for cheap, paint it up, reliner it, new chinstrap and bingo, a RW helmet. Need a Reichsmarine or DD SS RZM, no problem buy a shell for cheap, and in a week you have one of the rarest helmets on the planet. Need that camo DD Heer youve been missing, buy a shell, camo it up, reliner and restrap it. There you go. Sorry, there is no history there and little value.

[Schwerpunkt]

You just have to draw a line as to what this forum is about. I don't think there can be any misinterpretation that this section is intended to be about real historical artefacts and not something that looks like it from afar.

Money issues aside it doesn't change the intention of this section or forum.

There's plenty of original militaria around that fills everyone's needs , if helmets are too pricey you can go and collect bayonets, medals , etc...

[gaz232sqn]

Hello Qaz , a collector of historical pieces is someone who appreciates the historical items in their pure untouched form.
The item you posted has no value for a true collector of historical items. I can understand the reasoning behind your attempt , I can understand that people want filler because the items are getting too expensive. But lets call a horse a horse , this forum is about war relics and an overpainted original shell can no longer be called that.

Hi.

OK,an interesting point, all be it debatable and therefore slightly confusing, am I to understand that if the shell, in it's unpainted, and rusty state,is a war relic?

Where as if hypothetically, someone after the war paints the shell,and fits a re-pro liner,as the original was so corroded,that it could not be displayed,as a piece of used equipment,it is therefore a fake ,and by that definition not a genuine a war relic,in anyway shape or form.

If I use the analogy, of a 1940's Chevrolet, which has been repainted,to it's original condition,on the basis of a photo,as the "painter" had never had the opportunity,to see the original during the era that the car was in use,would that make it a fake?

I would appreciate some clarification on this matter.

[gaz232sqn]

Thanks for clearing that up Gaz, I know there is a community of "restorers" out there, some people call them by other names, plying their trade and making their product better which in the long run hurts the hobby. I wasn't sure if this was such a topic or not.

Restorers sometimes mark their work and no I wasn't assuming you were selling it but time moves on, as you say life is short and this helmet will be in someone else's hands one day.

Cheers
Doug

PS - I agree topics can sometimes be contentious with respect to German (I prefer this term than Nazi) helmets, or any militaria. It is all faked from buttons to bomb casings unfortunately.

Doug.

No worries Mate, I did not realise that by posting this lid,over a boring weekend ,would cause this much debate,but I guess that's a good thing,as it stimulates the old grey cells,and as I said previously,these lids are so contentious,so I suppose I should ask myself ,"what did I expect" ?

I will definitely stick,to my chosen collecting subject, M1's,much less hassle in the long run.

But as I said,no worries and no offence taken,I was after an honest and open opinion, just for the heck of it,and I got it,so it's cool

[gaz232sqn]

I like it, Looks nice

Thanks Nuno,for what it is, it is nice,and I like it, it makes an excellent display piece,alongside my M1's.

Thanks for your comments Mate

[gaz232sqn]

Hi Doug,
I'm not having a go at you! But by some of the replie's it would seem that if you have a shell and try to make something of it (due in some part to its condition) it then becomes a fake and has no historical value. So by the same token, if I have a shell - with possibly with no paint on it, and I leave it in that state it is an historical artifact. So the best thing to do is melt all the crap down and just keep the good stuff.

I realise that my style of putting my view across must upset a lot of people. I love history, I love historical items of any type. I agree it is best to have the 'untouched' items - if you can obtain or afford them. But where I disagree is on this notion that no-one should restore old and otherwise unwanted helmet-shells. There IS a market for them amongst collectors. Would it be better to say to some youngster starting out on collecting that they shouldn't bother with a restored helmet and should save up for several years until they can afford an untouched item? Or is it better to encourage them in their collecting? Or how about someone in a poorly paid job. Do you tell them they shouldn't bother collecting because they will never be able to afford the good stuff? Or do you offer them an alternative? Owning a repro or a 'restored' item can spur you on to replace it with a better quality item. Museums are full of items that have been restored, but no-one suggests they should get rid of them.

People should get over it and get a life, you collect what you want to collect - and it doesn't matter what others may think about it. I wouldn't dream of passing off any restored helmets as the real thing. What happens to them when I'm dead is not my problem, knowing my family they couldn't seperate the valuable stuff from the other stuff anyway!

Harry.

Hi Mate.

Good point,and a lot more articulate,than I can be bothered to be right now