m42 camo extra pics

[Schwerpunkt]

I didn't say that the pattern was impossible , before one judges the camo itself one must judge if the factory base is correct.

[Acekevlar]

That is where you are at a disadvantage, the base color has two different appearances. One is the under shell exposed to air look. The other is on the outside shell, clear by the rim. This paint has been protected probably because the paint wad cut with oil and not gasoline. The true color is brighter than the ins ide shell, which matches correctly within the specs of war time color ranges. This is true factory paint, i will explain why.

Have you lookef closely to teh retaining rivets on the outer shell? Have you noticed a disrtepancy? The base color is black on the rivets. No blue is present on any rivet. Black is only seen on the outline of the camo.

This to me is the key to its authenticity. Remember the split pin i removed? It had a different maker mark then the shell, a common practice. One company makes the shell, and another the rivet, then they are assembled at the painting stage. If blue were present, it would indicate painting was done with rivets in, not likely at all. The black is overpainted with the camo. This matches exactly the steps involved in the painting process.

This is a strong indicator of originality and proper fabrication methods. It is a real camo helmet. My green flags outweigh your red flags. I have proven my facts and backed them up with period pictures.

To say this is not correct is wrong. It all fits, even the rust has been addressed. I can provide puctures of othet camo helmets that mimic this. The factory paint is real, i have the advantage of seeing it in person. Everything fits, even the stitching patterns. Even the size mark stamp on the liner is dead on. To believe this is not period is wrong.

The split pin and markings tie everything together. That is my opinion. I have provided proof for everything, but always something else seems wrong, it fits like a velvet glove. I have provided factual proof and still it is not good enough. I guarantee if you saw this helmet you would snatch it up in a second. There are too many positives here, I have even found matching color patterns on originals. This paint palette is correct to period use. The reason it looks ww1 is due to the oil like substance in the paint. The colors have been muted because the oily delivery vehicle is clouding up.

I have worked with stains all my life, and have even set up furniture spraying lines for major business, this includes creating custom stains. I know about spray techniques and application. This is a hand applied finish, probably with a rag. Texture was either sprayed on, or by hand.

Im sorry to disagree with you, but there is no way this is not genuine. It all fits, liner, paint, markings. Ill even send you a pic of the split pins in the interior shell. They have been never removed other than the one I checked. The rust pattern of the inner shell runs onto the metal rim, you cant fake that. That shows even oxidation between the two parts. A replaced liner would not rust at the same rate.
Please look over your facts before telling me to return it. Im sorry you cant believe it, but these helmets do exist. You have not proven your facts, only that this or that looks odd. I have given you an example for everything you mentioned that might be off. We have covered the helmet inside and out, so i can not see why you are skeptical. Because some rust looks off, come on. I have shown evidence on this subject. Im beating a dead horse here. It seems no matter what evidence i provide, it is rebuffed.

Look at the whole picture here, it fits within the realms of originality. Count your red flags, ill count my green ones and we'll see who has more. I have also ran into this attitude in the comic collecting field. This non believing craze will kill this field of collecting.

[Acekevlar]

By the way, if you look at the rust on the inner shell, it travels upwards from the rim heading to the crown. People touched the outer part with their hands, leaving oils and acids that starts the corrosion. Then you can see it telegraphing towards the crown, which should hardly be affected. The d ring has impregnated itself into the shell, this shows that these pieces have never been separated. Ill get back to you about the stitching, which also seems correct.

[Dean]

I truly despise the term,"textbook"......ughhh..

[Glenn66]

Is this the 3rd thread on this helmet?

Why did you ask for opinions if you only want to argue for originality?
For me the camo is odd being WW1 style. Maybe on an M35 but an M42?, not impossible I guess but certainly rare. The leather liner is not stitched in a manner I would be comfortable with and the liner band is in an oddly different condition to the interior of the helmet but hey, if you like it then great. Go in peace.

[Acekevlar]

Textbook does not exist in ww2 german paint. Colours differed within troops, let alone the whole army. Its even stated everywhere that no two helmets are identical. This was a primitive time, not like today. Luftwaffe paint was from medium blue grey to dark blue grey. For some reason we forget that colors change in time, and depending on which chemicals are used.

If the color is wrong, then that means it was faked. Which would mean the forger would need a bare shell. Then he painted it blue, added black split rivets and then camo. That makes no sense. A forger would not use labeled split pins. When I visualize this, it makes no sense. Especially when there is no sign of pitting in the shell. So he had a perfect clean shell, then he added the marks. Lets get real here, thats just ridiculous. There is no sign of the shell ever being stripped, rubbed, or anything else. Textbook is a myth, there was a war on, you think they cared if the colour was off a shade or two, or three? Only we in todays society think like that.

I have presented my case and facts, and I see no reason why this helmet is not original. The wear on the crown looks too good, did anyone look at the soviet helmet i posted? Look at the rust pattern, it starts at the rim and surprise surprise its totally different in the crown. If that doesn't prove the rust theory, i have no idea what will. You have all had the chance to observe and read all my postings. I have almost written a book about the subject on here. How much more can I present?

Textbook is a myth, and its time we clear this up in the collecting community. I have run out of breath and patience on this matter. I can see why some people refrain from posting, you need at least three university degrees just to talk about rivets.

Do your own research people, that is my advice. Count on your own abilities, and use common sense. Believe in yourself and the items you invest in. Knowledge is a powerful tool, only when you continue the learning process, and not accept textbook as the law. Yeah im gonna pitch the helmet because the rust doesnt look right, ill get right on that. The next week youd see it in a shop for 2 grand guaranteed original.

[Acekevlar]

The colors and style match, and it is not ww1. Look at the picture at german helmets.com. The liner band shows the same rust pattern as the skirt on the inside of the shell. Why would it be rare on an m42? After France surrenderd the war ended pretty much till d-day. The sitzkrieg began on the western front. There was no need for camo really prior to 44. So it would make more sense to see it on an m42. After barbarossa began, then camo would be vital, but prior to it, who were they hiding from?


As to liners, i have seen originals that look totally fake. Nice bright tan yellow colors, but still original. Take a look at some web sites and see whats selling out there.

[VolksJager]

Is this the 3rd thread on this helmet?

Why did you ask for opinions if you only want to argue for originality?
For me the camo is odd being WW1 style. Maybe on an M35 but an M42?, not impossible I guess but certainly rare. The leather liner is not stitched in a manner I would be comfortable with and the liner band is in an oddly different condition to the interior of the helmet but hey, if you like it then great. Go in peace.

Ditto! After all 3 topics on this lid I am still confused as to why you started them in the first place. To me you have already made your mind up. Nothing more to say

[Schwerpunkt]

What textbook means is simply explained. It means it has the appearance and feel of known original examples. Original factory examples look alike (even age and wear taken into account). Same with liners and chinstraps.
Once you move to camouflaged helmets the interior , liner and chinstrap is often all you have to confirm originality of the factory shell.

I admit I have not read your chapters in defense of your helmet as I'm pretty sure of what I see and what I know. I don't need to visit websites to see examples as I have plenty of German helmets on my shelves as some of my friends here can attest to.

I have no interest in giving you bad news so do with my posts as you want.

PS Why would tan liners be fake ? It's not the color nor condition that determines if leather is fake...

[DougB]

I have a lot of questions.

1. What are 3 threads needed about 1 helmet for?
2. If your so sure it's real why ask for opinions?
3. WTF are you doing removing split pins? Good luck returning that lid.
4. You say why did Germans did not have a need for camo before Barbarossa? That's the silliest point ever made on a camo pro or con I have ever heard. Why did the SS invent and be outfitted with the stuff pre war then?
5. You reference germanhelmets.com an awful lot. It is not the holy bible of helmets, far from it. What are your other reference materials?
6. You reference what German helmets look like on other dealer sites. Can you please give us those websites you refer to please? Dealer sites are probably not your best resource for learning and authenticating in fact they are your worst source.

With all due respect, Your green flags support no claim to the helmet being original other than supposition. Your helmet has all the hallmarks of a top to bottom fake including the base paint which from your photos is not the feldgrau of this model of M42, chinstrap and liner appear to be postwar jobs, no stretch marks from wear in the liner, no marriage of oxidization between the shell and liner band, no rust on the interior of the dome which is typical when the exterioir of the vents have rust patterns anywhere close to this (in other words sprayed with an acidic corrosive liquid to give the appearance of age), the rust is active, camo has no patination to it, no discernible field wear where you expect to see it, and the pattern while plausible, with all the red flags I see, just rings another bell of caution to me. Personally I side with Frank, from what youve shown and explained so far this one would be going back - if it could after removing split pins but I doubt the dealer is interested in refunding a tampered with item.

Cheers
Doug

PS you would be surprised what can be faked with camo's they must be approached with a healthy skepticism and not a yearning want or desire or you will be open to be blinded. Don't believe me? , head on over to GHW and look up the word Ruffin. You can thank me later