anyone have a request to see any particular buckles ??

[Ben Evans]

Gents for me RZM 33 is J D Von Hagen

[Kurt D]

The case for J. D. von Hagen seems compelling. The company is listed in the 1935 RZM handbook under M4/33 and M5/22, but not under M1. This would make it one of the relatively few producers of buckles and/or metal accoutrements who either never had a RZM permit to make badges, or had lost it by the time the handbook was published in 1935. Lacking a license to produce party badges, their “first generation” permit from the RZM metal wares department (RZM 33) could not be transferred to M1 and would have been assigned to the M4 category when the final system was introduced. As and aside, J. D. von Hagen is no longer listed under M4 or M5 in the 1938 list of licensed producers published in the RZM Mitteilungsblatt.

[Ben Evans]

Gents, my good friend Wim Saris (although banned) has been watching the thread with interest, he is what he has to input and for me very interesting

"Again one discusses 33. This is M4/33 which is von Hagen from Iserlohn.

Do not see any problem. It is in the Handbuch der RZM from 1935.

THey lost their permission December 16, 1937.

M1 is an open question, but it is hardly impossible to be von Hagen. I fit would have been

that concern then the permission was already withdrawn before the publishing of the

Handbook. Maybe von Hagen just used the RZM abbreviation and not the KH indication"

"PS: forgot to mention.

Von Hagen was also M5/22 (formerly as UE).

There was a remark however. They only were allowed to

manufacture fittings (nur Beschläge)"

[Kurt D]

Thank you, Ben, and thanks to Wilhelm Saris for confirming the date von Hagen lost their M4 and M5 licenses. It is of course possible that they just omitted the KH or M4 prefix when marking these buckles RZM 33. My suggestion, however, is that '33' was their "first generation" metal license number (like e. g. '17' for Assmann), and that the buckle was made before the sub-divisions within metal (e. g. KH, M4) were introduced. Not being licensed to produce metal badges at that time, their first generation permit number could not be transferred to MA/M1 (like e.g. Assmann M1/17), but was transferred to the M4 category. Speculative? Certainly. I don't know if von Hagen ever held a license for metal party badges, and if they did, at what time they lost it. We don't even know when the 'KH' sub-division was introduced. But von Hagen didn't hold a M1 license at the time they held M4/33 and M5/22 (this system being introduced in April 1935) and there are buckles marked 'RZM 33'.

[Ben Evans]

Prob one of the unknowns for now Kurt

[Chad William]

great discussion, Thank you W. Saris and everyone else for their thoughts! I had never put the JDvH name on the RZM 33 question so this makes me happy! I will try to get out my RZM 33 HJ and DJ and post pics tonight; but may take till morning
thanks
Chad

[Chad William]

[Chad William]

[Chad William]

notice the common fact that the catch is soldered on farther back than usual on both of these buckles.
Does anyone else have RZM 33 examples to post?

[Kurt D]

Chad, thank you posting these two RZM 33 buckles! I don't have any of these. But returning to your kind offer at the start of this thread, could you show your black DJ buckles? That would be really great.