NSDAP Jugend Buckles

[aechols83]

That's a very nice and rare buckle, Kirby. I would love also to see here a 35mm "straight wings" SA. For those interested I have also attached an interesting buckle here... I am told this is a 35mm example and not a 45mm but it is very interesting as the box has "ears." I have also not seen this design before.

Wilhelm - Thank you again for all your input and for the particular comment here. I too really like the Linden und Funke marking and have now also seen it on NSBO and Front Heil Stahlhelmbund buckles.

There may be a related interesting point here with these "NSDAP Jugend" buckles and which might dovetail nicely with the discussion & thread on the origins of the SA buckle. In the attached Assmann catalog these 35mm SA design buckles are labeled "HJ" whereas and 40mm buckles are identified as "SA." I am curious about this and whether these smaller buckles, in addition to being for youth, were walking-out related for the SA.

Best,
Adam

[Kurt D]

Adam

Great collection of 35mm SA you have. Thanks for reminding us of this Assmann Musterblatt and, yes, it is interesting that they labeled the 35mm buckle as HJ. This would seem to imply that the 35mm was the norm for HJ boys of all ages, although one might think that a 16 or 18 year old (not to speak of leaders in their 20ies or 30ies) would feel more comfortable with a "grown up" size buckle. The SA buckle was, of course, the regulation buckle for the Hitler Youth prior to introduction of the distinctive HJ and DJ buckles some time in the 2nd half of 1933. In "summer dress regulations for the HJ" (Mitteilungsblatt der RJF, August 1933) it just says "SA buckle". So I wonder if any HJ regulations are known describing the SA buckle as prescribed for the HJ in detail, to include dimensions (Wilhelm??).

40mm was a popular size for Reichsheer and Heer private purchase "walking out" buckles, and this size is also sometimes seen on Imperial army buckles. On gut feeling, I would assume that a 35mm "child's buckle" would not be the buckle of choice for an adult SA-Mann. Does anybody have a 40mm SA buckle?

Regards, Kurt

[Wilhelm Saris]

Number 111 from August 10, 1933 mentions: Dienstanzug, Sommerkleidung.
With Lederzeug it was said: brown SA-belt with shoulder-belt.
Nothing is noted about what type of buckle is being worn, Kurt.
In what issue from the Verordnungsblatt was the SA-buckle mentioned?

[Kurt D]

Wilhelm

In my earlier post I was citing from a note I made in a kind of "master file" I set up many years ago, giving the source as Folge (issue) 14 dated 10 August 1933. I didn't note the number (111 as you say), but it must be the same one you refer to. Your reply had me scurrying down to the basement to check the source and I "found" (didn't find it actually) the file containing all my photocipies from the VBl der RJF to be missing - seemingly lost in a house move sometime (there have been a few of those during the last years). The only explanation for the apparent inaccuracy of my note in the "master file" is that, when reading the item, I must have inferred that "SA belt" means belt and (box) buckle. Thinking about it now, this still seems logical as the only alternative would be the SA open claw belt buckle, not really seen in wear a lot by HJ boys in 1933. I am not at all clear about when the "Zweidornschnalle" was first made official for all ranks of the SA. If it was by item 10 of VBl SA, issue 16, dated 1 December 1933, reference to the SA belt in August 1933 can only mean the box buckle anyway.

As I said, I'm not at all familiar with the evolution of the SA buckle and, therefore, immensly looking forward to your SA buckle thread on this forum.

Kind regards, Kurt

[aechols83]

Hello All,

Just a very short reply post here... Could the last SA/NSDAP Jugend I posted be a 40mm example? I would love to see a 40mm example if anyone has one. Very excited for further discussion and threads!

Best,
Adam

[Wilhelm Saris]

Hello Kurt,

It is of course logical the belt belonged to the buckle. Soryy, maybe I was to quick in my judgement.
The double-claw was a fact already in July 1932. The use of the regular SA-buckle was conived for many years (about 1934).

That youth did wear SA types of buckles is quite logical also: for years the organization was ofifcially assigned to the [B]Oberste SA-Führung[/B], they were in fact a part for the SA, and the command for the HJ will have looked
too their "big brothers", the SA.
During the time of prohibition(s) the German police (police report from Dortmund: Sonderbefehl Nr. 23 from June 17, 1930) had especially to look at specific items that weren't allowed to be worn. Amongst them were the belt with buckle with nazi-symbol.
The youth was noted to be divided into three groups: the Wanderabteilung, which were the bigger youth; the Schar, which was the Deutsches Jungvolk and the sports-groups. In spite of the fact this has not been included in any of the known regulation for the HY - it is very difficult to find early material and the Vbl. der Reichsjugendführung actually started with nr. 1 from January 22, 1933 (not printed, but typed out) - it would be a logical fact that the elder youth would wear the regular SA buckle in the well-known size. The youngsters most often did wear smaller belts with smaller buckles attached. The loops for their pants often were smaller and the big belt did not fit. Photographs show them wearing also the larger buckle. Occasionally one sees youth with the so-called sports buckles.
Again this is not mentioned in any early regulation I have seen. It was done. Of course also while manufacturers did offer them and they were quite cheap for the timeframe. Due to the big July 1933 re-organization a further development in HJ uniforms started. The Jungvolk buckle with the rune was first available, as in fact various manufacturers already produced buckles with all kind of rune-types. A new rune was designed and was available in about late spring. The HJ buckle was agreed in its design October 17, 1933 and available in about December.

[Kurt D]

Dear Wilhelm

Thank you for your additional input containing some very valuable information that was new to me . Am eagerly awaiting the continuation of your SA thread. Hope you have a good time here!

Warm regards, Kurt

[Lenny Warren]

Holy Thread Resurrection batman...

I've just got a 40mm SA so here it is for those asking about it...

[aechols83]

Lenny,

A very nice, rare buckle you've shared. This is a well-known 45mm SA variant in roundel design and construction as seen with this buckle of mine--a brass, later chromed 45mm.

I cannot recall seeing another 40mm in the time I've been collecting. A bit odd perhaps as we see many 40mm Reichswehr buckles and then both standard and (a bit less so) the 35mm SA/NSDAP Jugend.

Thanks for sharing

P.S. - You will, of course, let me know should you tire of this one!

[Lenny Warren]

Lenny,

A very nice, rare buckle you've shared. This is a well-known 45mm SA variant in roundel design and construction as seen with this buckle of mine--a brass, later chromed 45mm.
P.S. - You will, of course, let me know should you tire of this one!

Cheers mate, I'm really happy with it, afraid it's a keeper....