NVA and Border Guards caps: Please give opinions.

[reneblacky]

They are all good
L=1973
Y=1988

[James C]

Rene' thanks for the confirmation on the L date i was unsure if it was the early or latter L date code mate

[Watchdog]

Well, I picked up a few of these in Berlin while the "wall" was still intact mostly from Soviet officers wanting to trade for western goods to send home. The hats shown here seem perfectly fine to me and the only fakes I have seen (apart from stuff trying to replicate rare items from the very early communist period) have been very obvious "tourist trash".

Also, as has been said above, originals are still cheap so what is in it for fakers to make anything more difficult than a fancy dress item?

I think you should worry more about the expert who told you these are fake!

I will dig out my hats and post pics if I can remember where I have stashed them!

Regards

Mark

[Friedrich-Berthold]

I think you should worry more about the expert who told you these are fake!


I had the experience in 1983 at Helmstedt with the Soviets wanting to trade things, but we were told by our G2 on pain of death never to embark on such trades,
as we would then end up in Siberia, etc.

A more innocent time of atomic death.

I take your point about such experts, as I am often chary of what they say.

I saw warehouses of these things at the time, in Thueringen, in Bad Salzungen. I still have a tunic I found there.

[Astrath]

Here is Mr. Mint's tutorial on these. I am utterly out of my depth. Of course, none of these is well made by the standards of the 1920s tnrough the 1940s,
so I am frankly unsure as to the facts.

I will leave it to someone who has the time and energy to trace it all down.

Happy hats.


Fake DDR Visors

- - ------- - -

I more or less can tell III. Reich caps, mostly, but with the others I cannot, and would not pretend to do so. What I bought was of the time in the place, i.e.
1989-1991.

Sir. FB, Thank you for the information. I believe you spent unforgettable moments during the years 1989/1991. I would love to have been there in those days of transition.
But I was 7 years old in 1989, but have a small reminder of the news, awesome time.

[Astrath]

Here is Mr. Mint's tutorial on these. I am utterly out of my depth. Of course, none of these is well made by the standards of the 1920s tnrough the 1940s,
so I am frankly unsure as to the facts.

I will leave it to someone who has the time and energy to trace it all down.

Happy hats.


Fake DDR Visors

- - ------- - -

I more or less can tell III. Reich caps, mostly, but with the others I cannot, and would not pretend to do so. What I bought was of the time in the place, i.e.
1989-1991.

I looked at all these pictures of all these issues, but they do not show the latest caps, only high-ranking military or older.
But either way it's a good post about fake DDR.
Thank you so much.

[Astrath]

See this, copy a militaria site.

All East German Uniform items were letter coded to indicate the year of manufacture from 1968 onward. Prior to this the actual year and possible also the quarter was usually stamped into the uniform item.

K=1968, Z=1969, M=1970, X=1971, B=1972 ,L=1973, O=1974, S=1975, R=1976, A=1977, U=1978, F=1979, E=1980, G=1981, I=1982, C=1983, H=1984, T=1985, P=1986, L =1987, Y=1988, N=1989, D=1990

(You will notice that the letter L is used twice.)

Astrath

[Astrath]

Well, I picked up a few of these in Berlin while the "wall" was still intact mostly from Soviet officers wanting to trade for western goods to send home. The hats shown here seem perfectly fine to me and the only fakes I have seen (apart from stuff trying to replicate rare items from the very early communist period) have been very obvious "tourist trash".

Also, as has been said above, originals are still cheap so what is in it for fakers to make anything more difficult than a fancy dress item?

I think you should worry more about the expert who told you these are fake!

I will dig out my hats and post pics if I can remember where I have stashed them!

Regards

Mark

A Brazilian friend who does not know much more than I about these caps I said that, based on the sweatband and the material used in two of the caps I have quoted before, but I appreciate the comments and the whole discussion, I look at the pictures of his caps .
Thanks,

[Astrath]

More information aboute DDR uniform..

Guide to finding the Shoulderboards you need on GermanDotMilitaria.com

I have come up with a coding system to try and make it as easy as possible for you to find the shoulderboards that you are looking for on my site. This is not an educational guide to DDR shoulder boards, but rather is meant for those that wish to pinpoint exactly what shoulder boards they are looking for on this site. Of course you can still browse the categories by pictures or by searchwords. The choice is yours. All shoulder board listings start with SB in the item title, followed by a code letter(s) for the type of organisation, then a code letter for the branch or Waffenfarbe, where applicable, and then followed by a code number for the rank. Examples of how to use these codes are given at the bottom of this page. The codes are built up as follows:

Organisations

NVA

Landstreitkraefte (LaSK) - army - code LA

Waffenfarben: WHITE (weiss - Infantry) - code LAW
(branches) WHITE with Lyra (Musical - Military Orchestra) - code LAMO
PINK (rosa - Panzer/Tanks) - code LAP
BLACK (schwarz - Engineers/Pioneers/Chemical/Transport/etc.) - code LAB
YELLOW (gelb - Signals/Communication) - code LAY
DARK GREEN (dunkelgruen - rear services) - code LAD
DARK GREEN with Rod of Asclepius (medical services) - code LADM
DARK GREEN with crossed swords (military justice) - code LADJ
DARK GREEN with caduceus (military administration) - code LADV
ORANGE (orange - Paras/Paratroopers) - code LAO
RED (Ziegelrot - Artillery/Missiles) - code LAR
OLIVE GREEN (olivengruen - Bausoldaten/service w/o weapon) - code LAOG

Luftstreitkraefte (LSK) airforce - code L
Luftverteidigung (LV) - air defence - code LV
Volksmarine (VM) - navy - code VM
Volksmarine Flieger (VML) - navy air service - code VML
Grenztruppen (GT) - border guards - code GT
Grenzbrigade Kueste (GBK) - naval border guards - code GBK
Felddienst (FD) - subdued field service - code FD
Felddienst (UTV) - new rank insignia scheduled for introduction in late 1990 - code UTV
Felddienst (UTV) cap badge insignia scheduled for introduction in late 1990 - code UTVC

NOTE: THERE WAS A CHANGE IN THE DESIGN OF NVA SHOULDER BOARDS FOR GERFREITER AND STABSGEFREITER RANKS IN 1972. PRE-1972 SHOULDER BOARDS HAVE AN X AFTER THE BRANCH CODE, I.E. FELDDIESNT PRE-1972 = CODE FDX.

Stasi

Ministerium fuer Staatssicherheit (MfS/Stasi) - State Security Police - code MFS

MdI (Ministerium des Innern - Ministry of the Interior)

Volkspolizei (VP) - police - code VP
Transportpolizei (Trapo) - transportation police - code TP
Bereitschaftspolizei (BePo) - riot police - BP
Zollverwaltung (Zoll) - customs - code Z
Zivilverteidigung (ZV) - civil defence - code ZV
Berufsfeuerwehr - professional fire brigade - code BF
Freiwillige Feuerwehr (FFW) - voluntary fire brigade - code FFW
Strafvollzug (SV) - prison service - code SV
Kampfgruppen (KG) - workers militia - code KG

Police Felddienst (subdued) shoulder boards have the suffix FD after the organisation code, i.e. the code for Transportpolizei Felddienst would be SBTPFD.

NOTE: THERE WAS A CHANGE IN THE DESIGN OF MDI SHOULDER BOARDS IN 1980. PRE-1980 SHOULDER BOARDS HAVE AN X AFTER THE BRANCH CODE, I.E. VOLKSPOLIZEI PRE-1980 = CODE VPX

Deutsche Reichsbahn (Railways) - code DR

Deutsches Rotes Kreuz (German Red Cross) - code DRK

Gesellschaft fuer Sport und Technik (paramilitary youth) - code GST

Dienstgrade - Ranks

NVA/Stasi/Zivilverteidigung - Volksmarine equivalent ranks are in BLUE - Volkspolizei (MdI) ranks are in GREEN - Freiwillige Feuerwehr (Voluntary Fire Brigade) ranks are in RED (if different from army ranks) - Berufsfeuerwehr (Professional Fire Brigade) ranks are in this colour (if different from Voluntary Fire Brigade)

Soldat Matrose Anwaerter der VP Feuerwehranwaerter (Private) - code 001
Postenfuehrer (Post Commander) - only applies to Grenztruppen - code 001P
Gefreiter Obermatrose Not a VP rank Unterfeuerwehrmann (Corporal) - code 002
Stabsgefreiter Stabsmatrose Unterwachtmeister Feuerwehrmann (Senior Corporal) - code 003
Unteroffiziersschueler (NCO student) - code 003S
Unteroffizier Maat Wachtmeiser Not a FW rank (NCO) - code 004
Unterfeldwebel Obermaat Oberwachtmeiser Oberfeuerwehrmann (NCO) - code 005
Feldwebel Meister Hauptwachtmeister Hauptfeuerwehrmann (NCO) - code 006
Oberfeldwebel Obermeister Meister der VP Loeschmeister (NCO) - code 007
Stabsfeldwebel Stabsobermeister Obermeister der VP Oberloeschmeister (NCO) - code 008
Faehnrichschueler Year 1 (Student Warrant Officer) - code 009
Faehnrichschueler Year 2 (Senior Student Warrant Officer) - code 010
Faehnrich (Warrant Officer) - code 011
Oberfaehnrich (Warrant Officer) - code 012
Stabsfaehnrich (Warrant Officer) - code 013
Stabsoberfaehnrich (Warrant Officer) - code 014
Offiziersschuler Year 1 (officer student) - code 015
Offiziersschuler Year 2 (officer student) - code 016
Offiziersschuler Year 3 (officer student) - code 017
Offiziersschuler Year 4 (officer student) - code 018
Offiziersschuler Year 5 (officer student) - code 019
Offiziersschuler Year 6 (officer student) - code 020
Unterleutnant Unterleutnant zur See Unterbrandmeister Unterleutnant (Junior Lieutenant) - code 021
Leutnant Leutnant zur See Brandmeister Leutnant (Lieutenant) - code 022
Oberleutnant Oberleutnant zur See Oberbrandmeister Oberleutnant (Senior Lieutenant) - code 023
Hauptmann Kapitaenleutnant Brandinspektor Hauptmann (Captain) - code 024
Major Korvettenkapitaen Oberbrandinspektor Major (Major) - code 025
Oberstleutnant Fregattenkapitaen Hauptbrandinspektor Oberstleutnant (Lieutenant Colonel) - code 026
Oberst Kapitaen zur See Oberst (Colonel) - code 027
Generalmajor Konteradmiral Generalmajor (Major General) - code 028
Generalleutnant Vizeadmiral (Lieutenant General) - code 029
Generaloberst Admiral (General) - code 030
Armeegeneral Flottenadmiral (Army General) - code 031
Marschall der DDR (Marshall) - code 032

blank Officer (no pips) - code 033
blank staff officer (no pips) - code 034
blank Warrant Officer (no pips) - code 035
blank NCO (no pips) only applies to MdI - code 036
sleeve patch (MdI) - code 037

NOTE: officer shoulder boards for Grenztruppen, Volkspolizei and Bereitschaftspolizei are identical to eachother. These are all listed under Grenztruppen (code sbgt)

Deutsche Reichsbahn (Railways) - also see here DR ranks on Wiki

Lehrling Teilausbildung - code 001
Lehrling Abgang 8. Klasse - code 002
Lehrling Abgang 10. Klasse - code 003
Lehrling Abgang 10. Klasse Berufsausbildung mit Abitur - code 004
Reichsbahn-Unterassistent - code 005
Reichsbahn-Assistent - code 006
Reichsbahn-Oberassistent - code 007
Reichsbahn-Hauptassistent - code 008
Reichsbahn-Untersekretär - code 009
Reichsbahn-Sekretär - code 010
Reichsbahn-Obersekretär - code 011
Reichsbahn-Hauptsekretär - code 012
Student der Ingenieurschulen - code 013
Student der Hochschule - code 014
Absolvent der Hochschule - code 015
Reichsbahn-Inspektor - code 016
Reichsbahn-Oberinspektor - code 017
Reichsbahn-Amtmann - code 018
Reichsbahn-Oberamtmann - code 019
Reichsbahn-Rat - code 020
Reichsbahn-Oberrat - code 021
Reichsbahn-Hauptrat - code 022
Reichsbahn-Direktor - code 023
Reichsbahn-Oberdirektor - code 024
Reichsbahn-Hauptdirektor - code 025
Stellvertreter des Generaldirektors der DR - code 026
Stellvertreter des Generaldirektors der DR, Staatssekretär, Stv. Minister - code 027
Minister für Verkehrswesen und Generaldirektor der DR - code 028

blank Assistent (no pips) - code 029
blank Sekretaer (no pips) - code 030
blank Inspektor/Amtmann (no pips) - code 031
blank Rat (no pips) - code 032

Examples of how to use the above (using the search window on the top right of the site):

a) You want to see all Volksmarine shoulder boards = SB for shoulder boards + VM for Volksmarine => type in SBVM

b) You want to see all Deutsche Reichsbahn shoulder boards = SB for shoulder boards + DR for Deutsche Reichsbahn => type in SBDR

c) You want to see a Grenztruppen Private (Soldat) rank = SB for shoulder boards + GT for Grenztruppen + 001 for Private => type in SBGT001

d) You want to see a Reichsbahn Assistent for the Railways = SB for shoulder boards + DR for Railways + 006 for Reichsbahn Assistent => type in SBDR006

e) You want to see a Hauptmann of the NVA Artillery = SB for shoulder boards + LAR for Red/Artillery + 024 for Hauptmann => type in SBLAR024

f) You want to see all NVA Army boards = SB for shoulder boards + LA for NVA Army => type in SBLA

Hope that all of the above makes sense, but please do let me know if you have any questions. Also, I do know that this list is not complete as yet for all organisation and all ranks of the DDR but I will try and complete these as I go along.

Guide to finding Shoulderboards on GermanDotMilitaria.com

[James C]

my own thoughts on the reworked caps shown on the fake ddr thread specifically the cockade replacement might also denote usage after reunification post 1990 ,slightly off topic but i have in my collection an authentic transitional period ukrainian made officer's cap dated 1991 and still retaining former soviet union armoured insignia and hammer and sickle strap pins