Juncker Silver PAB

[Newbie]

Here is a PAB i am considering purchasing. The pin has the same cast mark/defect at the top that my Juncker APB has, which is what leads me to believe Juncker. If anyone has any opinions, they would greatly be appreciated! Thanks in advance!

[FALLSCHIRMJAGER]

I can see no problems, looks a fine badge in good order to me, Leon.

[Adrian]

That pin looks like it has the 1957 scrape on it - post war S&L maybe?

[Newbie]

@ Adrian, really, it looks good to me. the guy that is selling it is a collector/dealer friend of mine, it is on his site. In fact, i purchased my APB from him......so now i am on the fence.

[Adrian]

Wait for a few more replies but I don't recall that scrape on the pin being associated with Juncker.

[big ned]

It's not a Juncker designed badge and the rear set up is wrong for one. It is however the set up used on FAKE S&L Panzerkampf Abzeichen's. The S&L fakes are very good, but the dead giveaway is the catchplate.

Here is an example of one of the S&L fakes of the three that are most often found. I have chosen this one as it most resembles the reverse of the one above.



Another example, slightly different.



Also your mentioning of the flaw on the pin of the Panzerkampf Abzeichen and your APB is very worrying if it is as Adrian describes a "scrape". Take a look at the pic below of this mark on the top of the pin, if yours resembles this it's bad news as far as the badges being of wartime manufacture.



S&L are notorious for producing badges post war that pertain to being genuine wartime pieces when they are not, and that 'scrape' on the pin is the giveaway.

Besides producing 1957 awards with it, they also produced badges that were 'uncensored' in that the Swastika was still present in the 1960's and 70's.

There has never been a proven original wartime badge ever found with this production mark/flaw on the pin, whether it be ground dug or with veteran's provenance. The main types found like this are PAB's, APB's, GAB's and Flak badges all made by S & L.

If your APB has the mark illustrated above, I would seriously consider returning it for a refund if it were mine, as it is not what it appears, a genuine watime award.

Regards, Ned.

[big ned]

Hi Newbie,

I've just looked at your APB on another thread. It's not exactly the case that "The pin has the same cast mark/defect at the top that my Juncker APB has...." because the pin is totally different, it's the flat bottle shaped type, and is therefore not a problem.The badge is good.

I assumed when you said "The pin has the same cast mark/defect at the top that my Juncker APB has....", and posted the fake S&L Panzerkampf Abzeichen you meant that the roundwire pin on that was the same as on your APB. That is obviously not the case.

Here for reference is a post war roundwire catch on an S&L produced APB. I hope this clears things up.

Regards, Ned.

[Adrian]

@ Adrian, really, it looks good to me. the guy that is selling it is a collector/dealer friend of mine, it is on his site. In fact, i purchased my APB from him......so now i am on the fence.

Just because a dealer/friend can sell an original piece, doesn't mean they're automatically beyond reproach. Dealers can and often do get caught themselves so you really do need to be on your guard all of the time and evaluate each piece before purchase.
I once bought a court mounted KVK2 from Detlev Niemann who was once considered by many to be the most reliable and unquestionable dealer at the time. The KVK was a fake, it bent like card under finger pressure. He replaced it obviously with an absolute top grade mint piece at his own expense but it demonstrates that anyone can get caught out my even the most common and humble award.

Ned's very detailed and accurate synopsis sums up my concerns with the badge. I don't believe this is a Juncker piece at all and with the additional feature of the scrape on the pin it makes it very clear in my mind that the badge is not an original.

Don't get confused with this scrape and any others. This is a specific shape and found only on round pins post war manufactured by Steinhauer & Luck. Don't reject all badges simply because there is a mark on the pin in this place. Learn the mark, the shape of it and you'll recognise it for what it is in the future.

Tom Durante identified it originally and has presented some very in depth evidence as to why these scrapes on the pins are associated with post war badges. I hope, if he reads this, he may consider posting it here too.

[FALLSCHIRMJAGER]

I learned something new here chaps, thanks, Leon.

[Anubis]

Indeed its not a Juncker, it was earler thought these were made by Juncker because of the set-up, but now everybody knows its S&L who made them, this one is in my opinion a clearly post war S&L badge.