Fake HJ Knife

[big ned]

Ned i,m sorry to say but these griplates you call late war celluloid are imo post war replacements, the knife you show with these celluloid griplates looks to me like the rivets have been messed with, can you take a close pic of the rivets on the plain side to show the rivet ends please?

Here is a very late war hj knife to show you the griplates & the proper way they were riveted in the factory using zinc rivets in this case.

Oh Dear..... I can't show closer pics of the knife as I don't own it. They are both actually being offered for sale on the dagger specialist site 'Wittmann Militaria'. I thought the guy was highly knowledgable and well respected for his choice in genuine Third Reich sharp, pointy things.

I am surprised that he had not noticed the replaced grips in his description of the HJ blade he is offering for sale. I find that odd.

Wittmann Militaria - Hitler Youth Knives (Hitlerjugend Fahrtenmesser)



Regards, Ned.

[Mac 66]

Ned he says in his description This grip is in excellent condition throughout and is retained by 2 nickel plated rivets, having "dressed heads on the obverse", so this rings alarm bells to me about the rivets being messed with imo, i still dont like these griplates but this is only my opinion & i wouldnt buy a hj knife with these poor manufactured griplates fitted & buggered with rivets but each to there own.

[big ned]

Ned he says in his description This grip is in excellent condition throughout and is retained by 2 nickel plated rivets, having "dressed heads on the obverse", so this rings alarm bells to me about the rivets being messed with imo, i still dont like these griplates but this is only my opinion & i wouldnt buy a hj knife with these poor manufactured griplates fitted & buggered with rivets but each to there own.

It would be ringing alarm bells with me too if the "Dressed heads on the obverse" appear to be a sign of fakery or having been messed with as 16 of the twenty knives he has listed are described as having such... The other 4 are listed as having "Retained heads" or "Rivet and spanner" rivets.

So would you say, on the whole that 16 of the 20 HJ knives that Tom Wittmann is selling have been "Buggered with"?

Regards, Ned.

[Mac 66]

It would be ringing alarm bells with me too if the "Dressed heads on the obverse" appear to be a sign of fakery or having been messed with as 16 of the twenty knives he has listed are described as having such... The other 4 are listed as having "Retained heads" or "Rivet and spanner" rivets.

So would you say, on the whole that 16 of the 20 HJ knives that Tom Wittmann is selling have been "Buggered with"?

Regards, Ned.

Who knows?, hands on examination would be the best way to know this point but i,m NOT going to condem Mr Wittmanns hj knifes.

End of discussion for me in this matter

[operaman]

Can someone call Whitman and ask if the grip plates are Bakelite or celluloid.He has the knife and as a dealer with a good rep I would think he would Be glad to tell us whats the deal.And I doubt that 16 of twenty of his knives are fake.I for one think the knife looks good and I would purchase if I did not already have an mottoed beauty

[Frogprince]

I think that very serious consideration should be given to the observations by ‘Mac 66’. Not very long ago elsewhere there was a discussion (or discussions) on dealer “enhanced” items put up for sale that had been fooled around with. Names were mentioned, who had stockpiles of parts (new and old), and who was offering “restoration services” etc. etc. And that was just the “tip of the iceberg”. Here is an enlargement of one of the rivets of the first dagger.

And a link to one source of repairs/upgrades. FP

Wittmann Militaria - Staff

[big ned]

Who knows?, hands on examination would be the best way to know this point but i,m NOT going to condem Mr Wittmanns hj knifes.

End of discussion for me in this matter

In that case it's fair to say that the knife originally posted here falls into that same category. You cannot condemn one and not the other under your method of examination by pictures alone. Let us agree to disagree, I still like the contested knife. Goodbye.

Ned.

[Frogprince]

I’m not an HJ knife specialist myself, but I can see two things in the two knives posted that I would want to look at more closely if I had them in hand. With the undersized (as compared to the tang) and/or possibly misaligned (?) grips on the top knife one area. And with the bottom knife, why are the grip diamonds around the rivets smashed? Which looks worse on the right side than on the left. FP

[Mac 66]

In that case it's fair to say that the knife originally posted here falls into that same category. You cannot condemn one and not the other under your method of examination by pictures alone. Let us agree to disagree, I still like the contested knife. Goodbye.

Ned.

Whats your problem?, i have told you my points about the first knife in question here & FP has supplied a blown up photo of the buggered rivets yet you still keep saying this knife is unmessed with, are you blind?, do you own any hj knifes or studied any in hand?, do you think high class dealers are god & tell the truth the whole truth & nothing but the truth? i give up as you seem to know more than me in this case

[Mac 66]

I’m not an HJ knife specialist myself, but I can see two things in the two knives posted that I would want to look at more closely if I had them in hand. With the undersized (as compared to the tang) and/or possibly misaligned (?) grips on the top knife one area. And with the bottom knife, why are the grip diamonds around the rivets smashed? Which looks worse on the right side than on the left. FP

FP, the top knifes rivets look replaced, you can see the one on left is cut short of the griplate thus so making it impossible to rivet the head to hold it tight onto the grip, the other rivet looks hand riveted & dressed off, bottom knifes rivets may be ok as sometimes this breaking away off the bakalite happens during the factory riviting process but a hands examination would be needed in this case.

Thanks for the blown up photos its much appreciated & really helps