Hitler Youth Knife Diamond Variations From 1933-1942

[Mac 66]

-- Thanks Mac 66. Do you know why these opaque variations were made? Is it just a case of a particular maker putting their own spin on things? And are these opaque variations more desired by collectors?

Not 100% sure why they made & used the opaque enamel on there hj knife diamonds but the opaque enamel was used on other TR badges & pins during the period : i.e > party badges, hj members badges ect , some collectors do not like them others do, Jo Rivetts book called The Party badge goes into the use of opaque enamel on TR badges: The Party Badge - B&D Publishing LLC , heres a good read on the subject over on WAF

HJ Knife solid red diamonds - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums



Mac 66.

[maxxx]

slightly darker diamonds from two transitionel hj s rob.-müller rzm m7/32
large diamond 15x25mm of two



greeting

[Mac 66]

Another Solid Red enamel diamond for the hj knife for referance: RZM M1/13 L. Christian Lauer, Nürmberg

[Larry C]

Amazing these things that there were so many sub contractors to these Diamonds and other fittings..which many seem to feel only one varied type were produced. That theory is now proven opposite. Great photographic evidence Scott.. Regards Larry

[Wilhelm Saris]

1st Early Period Smallest Daimond From 1933-1936: 20mm x 13mm.
I would like to know where this comes from?

In the earliest official publications in 1933 about the HJ-symbol, as well as the
manufacturing details for the dagger at that moment, the sizes were not as
mentioned above. Sizes were given specifically!
The size for the diamond was the same between 1933 and into about 1938,
when the size changed. 20 mm was not mentioned anywhere! There is no
difference for the diamond for the early headgear or dagger-grip diamond.
Sizes were allowed to vary for 1.0 mm or about according the manufacturing-
specifications. In 1938 the length was described as 2.5 cm in the dagger
manufacturing-regulation.

Official specification from 1933 from the Reichsjugendführung:


It would be great when someone can state the 2.0 cm size with an official
document from that period! Note the difference of 0.5 mm with the drawing
and as mentioned in the text!!

Specifications respectively 1933, 1936 and 1938:


(1933: Die Uniformen der HJ, as well as Bekleidung und Abzeichen der HJ,
the official regulation from January 15, 1934. The book was in preparation in 1933
and so was the specification for the dagger)


(1936: Herstellunngsvorschriften der Reichszeugmeisterei)


(1938: ibid)

The HJ-knife was introduced in the summer of 1933, actually for the first time
mentioned August 10, 1933 and for the order for a special meeting August 31,
1933, published in the "Verordnungsblatt der Reichsjugendführung (HJ))",
(issue 15 from August 10, 1933 and issue 16 from August 16, 1933) and actually
to be worn since mid-August (alle Gliederungen tragen nach Möglichkeit geschlossen
und einheitlich das Fahrtenmesser der HJ. Andere als die amtliche Fahrtenmesser
der RJF sind nicht zugelassen).

Of course lots of HJ-diamonds were made with slight different sizes and so, but
I just did quote from what officially should be done.

[Mac 66]

[QUOTE=Wilhelm Saris;1582665]1st Early Period Smallest Daimond From 1933-1936: 20mm x 13mm.
I would like to know where this comes from?


Hi Wilhelm,

The size comes from the early 1933 - 1936 no ricasso hj knifes, you can see the difference in size by just looking at them both without having to measure the difference of the early diamonds to the 1936 - 1938 diamonds on the transitional period dual marked hj knifes, see post #1

Many thanks for posting the official publications from 1933, interesting indeed



Regards Mac 66.

[Wilhelm Saris]

Hi Mac 66,

as mentioned I quoted from the official sources where a 2.0 cm length diamond
was not included (the official size I gave with the drawing and text-parts and
from 1933 up throuh 1938 the official length was about 2.3 cm).

I know very well manufacturer's did not follow procedures and so it is possible
deviating sizes do exist, but in fact there are only two official sizes as according
to the RJF and RZM. 20.0 mm is not one of them.

The RZM-controllers could have taken notice and later a withdrawing from the
permission could be the result. I have not the time for that, otherwise I could
make a list of those manufacturers that lost their permission between 1935 and
1944. I bet there were quite some (as it was with headgear and buckles)!

To give an idea: in the list from Clyde Davis he has about 118 numbers in total.
When I take the 1938 RZM-list there were about 50 up to the numbers 81 (as
noted in the list from mr. Davis). So about 30 already lost their permission in
about four years! A few to mention:
August Müller
Krebs
Lauterjung
Lüneschloss
Heller
Meis
Weyersberg and so on.

[Mac 66]

Hi Wilhelm,


Great information from you on this subject, many thanks

do you have any info on the later solid red/opaque enamel hj knife diamonds ?

Hj members pins & hat pins also came with solid red enamel as did NSDAP party badges.




Regards Mac 66.

[JMM]

Great thread. Thanks for the info.

[Wilhelm Saris]

Hi Wilhelm, Great information from you on this subject, many thanks
do you have any info on the later solid red/opaque enamel hj knife diamonds ? Hj members pins & hat pins also
came with solid red enamel as did NSDAP party badges. Regards Mac 66.

Hello,

I will have a look, but I cannot remember having later manufacturing specifications
on this subject. Cannot remember how they eventually were described and most
cataloques neither do give this information (I have hardly ever seen cataloques
later then 1940).

It might be of interest the HJ-badge was about April 1933 officially only manufactured
by the concern of Ferd. Hofstätter, who had the sole right (allein Herstellungsberechtigt),
the normal size as well as the Lilliput-version (which is about half the size of the normal).

Only the RJF Materialamt was allowed to sell the badges to all official HJ departments. It
was asked to inform the RZM when badges were seen or offered, having other manufacturers
markings. It was known other manufacturer made them, but in fact were not authorized at all.
It was asked to report the offenders.
(note from the "Verordnungsblatt der RJF" nr. 5 from April 13, 1933, page 7).