Blood grooves on Bayonets

[Larry C]

I have to admit that from the past,, I thought collecting bayonets were kind of drab looking with no great appeal or Aesthetics. I have seen some well preserved examples here on the forum and some beauties,, but to link the "blood groove" topic to the bayonet itself,,, makes this more chilling to collect as who knows how many deaths that these bayonets were responsible for. Some look at a dagger that is adorned with a "swastika" and feel ...."oh this is evil"...in a sense true...and the heirarchy was responsible for many deaths.............BUT...BUT...and i like big buts....in close proximity,, the bayonet would be responsible for more deaths than the one adorned with a swastika...maybe one or 2 depending upon the individual,, who was carrying a dagger. I say this only in close quarters,, and should not be taken out of context or replace the horrors that the final solution exibited. Wagriff brought up some great examples of bayonet lengths that are most horrifying,,,and some that will go through to the other side of the body. Some great points have been brought up between the amount of materials used to make the bayonet ..to .. the intent of being able to pull the bayonet out of a body easier,, because of the blood groove. Interesting!! Regards Larry

[SteveR]

Hi Larry. It stiffens the blade and it lightens the blade.

Eric

Edit Tempelhof beat me.

I need a blood groove in my pekker.

[Wagriff]

Scout, That may all well be, but how does it explain away davejb's #25 post of his father being shown exactly what the old wives tale always told us?

[Scout]

I dont think, Daves post needs to be 'explained away'
There are always exceptions to the rule.
How many times out of how many stabs in a carcass did it stick etc etc?
There are of course variables to take into consideration.
A bayonet may strike vertebrae and get stuck.
Further more, if left in a muscle, the muscle might contract around a blade and it can really get stuck.
Doctors sometimes get stabbing victims with a stuck knife in them and its often difficult to yank out the knife if its stuck in a muscle and have been left there for a while.
Most often, the blade is of course retracted.

[Frogprince]

As I think may have been mentioned, while “blood grooves” has something of a dramatic flair, “fullers” seems to be the more correct current expression. With the original purpose (as mentioned) being the stiffening of sword blades (the “I” beam concept), also having the additional side benefit of lightening the blade. With bayonets a later invention, as the first dagger-bayonets were mostly short and flat bladed with tapered wood handles to fit into the muzzles of muskets (ie: plug bayonets). For when there was not enough time to reload, (with some examples of the plug bayonets actually resembling the SA/SS daggers to a certain extent if you replaced the handles.)

But muzzle rings were eventually fitted, going to the spike type of blade. And the bayonets grew longer, and handles were added with some bayonets having blades (versus spikes) that made them look more like short swords than something that went on the end of the rifle. Having now for the most part (arguably*) coming full circle to a large extent during and after WW II with the German SG 42, and U.S. M-4 series (etc.) returning to the basics of the unfullered, shorter blades of the plug bayonets.

* PS: I know that there were some other shorter bladed bayonets in the late 19th and 20th centuries, and that there was also a back and forth in length, and blade configurations (etc. etc.), but I’m trying to be brief. Fred

[davejb]

I thank Scout for the very detailed and graphic content of a subject that I no doubt will be debated for years as it has done so already, the point about a blade being stuck in a muscle was very interesting but it lead me to a different question which i think i answered myself and that is "What are the main muscles in a human body", I believe one to be the heart out of the 639 named ones in the human body, the largest of which is the maximus gluttimus, ie the arse muscles, also the stomach muscles, which are very powerful and the lateral muscles, in this way would it not be possible to hit one of the 639 and the muscle clamp onto it, on a unfullered blade the muscle would surround the smooth blade and produce a powerful force but with a fullered blade the muscle would not be able to seal properly thereby allowing easier removal, just an observation

[Wagriff]

Exactly. And, I would also add,what Dave's father was shown during his war training is significant not so much for what it Showed, but more for the fact itself that the military felt it necessary to show it at all. Why would they have bothered in the first place, if a blade would simply slide in and out with no problem every time? They were demonstrating equipment-and not only the simple use of it.
Even such things as hunting knives-who will, hopefully, never be used to kill Anything, have blood grooves on them to prevent them from becoming imbedded in a carcass and enable the user to remove his knife without injuring himself or damaging his knife. Like I said earlier, purpose? A. Lightening a blade B. Strengthening a blade C. Easy and quicker removal of a blade. A,B or C? I'd vote for "All of the Above"

[Scout]

I thank Scout for the very detailed and graphic content of a subject that I no doubt will be debated for years as it has done so already, the point about a blade being stuck in a muscle was very interesting but it lead me to a different question which i think i answered myself and that is "What are the main muscles in a human body", I believe one to be the heart out of the 639 named ones in the human body, the largest of which is the maximus gluttimus, ie the arse muscles, also the stomach muscles, which are very powerful and the lateral muscles, in this way would it not be possible to hit one of the 639 and the muscle clamp onto it, on a unfullered blade the muscle would surround the smooth blade and produce a powerful force but with a fullered blade the muscle would not be able to seal properly thereby allowing easier removal, just an observation

Thank you.

Anything is possible of course. Freak accidents will occour.

I touched upon someone stabbing a foe and right there after extracting the knife.
In the above example (stabbing-extracting), there is hardly any resistance (unless you hit bone).
I have no empirical data about the following, but from what a doctor says about victims of stabbings arriving in emergency rooms, the muscles might contract and trap the blade making it difficult for the doctors to yank out the blade.

BUT you have to leave the blade in there. The muscles do not contract immmediately - its only after 'a while,' that the muscle contracts.
Well Scout, how long is a while then?
Anything over a split second in a knife fight is a long time, but as I understand it, its more a matter of someone being stabbed and left with the knife in him en route to the emergency room.
Its not like a muscle would suck in then knife in the instant a muscle is hit.
Leaving a blade sticking is of course not the norm in a fast and furious knife/bayonet fight, where you either 1. extract the blade to stab your opponent again or 2. extract the blade to look for the next opponent to die for his country or 3. determine that the one and only threat to your well being is eliminated and you leave the scene with your blade post-haste.

You mention the heart: Stabbing the heart with a knife/bayonet is a very quick deceisive way to end a fight.

A clean hit to the heart (see pic of knife hit to the heart in my previous post) will result in bodies hitting the floor in less than ten seconds flat.

There is abolutely no sticking of the blade in the heart with a knife - fuller or no fuller.

[davejb]

The Heart was just an example, i'm pretty sure that when your in the heat of a frenzied close quarter battle, you dont have time to make an accurate stab to the heart, the idea is to incapacitate your foe anyway you can, the mere fact someone has been stabbed is enough to make them buckle initially, perhaps adrenaline can take over, but a bayonet thrust to the stomach is enough to make an opponent fall to their knees, i have personally been stabbed in the back with a phillips headed screw driver and believe me its a heck of a shock and for some reason you do feel weak in the legs and straight away, even though no major damage was done it still incapacitated me for a few minutes , probably the result of shock to the body

[Scout]

Why would they have bothered in the first place, if a blade would simply slide in and out with no problem every time?

In order to condition recruits to stab something.

Even such things as hunting knives-who will, hopefully, never be used to kill Anything, have blood grooves on them to prevent them from becoming imbedded in a carcass and enable the user to remove his knife without injuring himself or damaging his knife.

The knife in my previous pics would be classified as a hunting knife (its actually a custom made pig sticking knife made for that purpose only).
It does NOT have a fuller.
It is a slab sided very big and wide knife. The width is several inches - far wider than any bayonet.
In spite of that NOTHING sticks to it, if you stab the heart, other muscles or flesh.

No, hardly any modern pattern hunting or pig sticking knives are made with fullers any more.
Its simply not in fashion as they serve no purpose except in very heavy blades to lighten the blade. Its also a way to balance the knife, if you cant take any more metal from the handle of a heavy knife, as you want the balance point to be at the joint between quillon and handle or just in front of the handguard.

Now some will start posting pics of all kinds of knives with fullers.
There is no need to, as I will readily admit, that there are still plenty around.
Knives like Ka-Bar or Marbles knives (traditional American utility knives - not sticking knives per se) have fullers.
Ka-Bars are still made like always - some of them with the old design of having a fuller.

Some other knives are also made with fullers simply because the customer wants it or if the design harks from a time where fullers were in fashion even on knives smaller than most bayonets.

Fullers are simply not present in most knives made today, because knives as a rule dont stick in flesh.