Article about: I purchased this dress bayonet at a local auction and the scabbard looks more like a k98 bayonet than a dress style. It is not numbered and has the screw on the edge. Are there examples of d
I have never owned a Dress bayonet that had a scabbard with a screw on the side. Sure I have bought them but it was obvious that is was not original to bayonet. The posted images are from a Klaas book shows them. Never to old to learn.
The blued military type scabbards (German Army and/or so-called Commercial) have screws, but they also have the thin style of scabbard lips (barely) overhanging the scabbard body. With WKC in its catalog quoting off duty bayonets @ RM 3.80 (and RM 3.60 but with the 20cm blade) for the black enameled scabbards, and RM .60 for stag grips. Not finding a line item for blued bayonet scabbards, for swords blued they were RM 1.05 extra with nickel @ RM 1.60 extra. PS: The Fire sidearms were RM 3.50 and RM 3.30 (20cm blade), and sawbacks @ RM .60 extra - and in the Imperial era military issue grade blades significantly more expensive than the private purchase types. With my point being that for makers it seems that it was the cost of manufacturing that was the primary consideration. Best Regards, Fred
Last edited by Frogprince; 01-06-2017 at 12:09 AM.
Reason: typo correction
Yes nice pictures in the book. But I'm wondering what actually happened in the places that sold these dress bayonets. I understand they were sold to members of the military through military supplier shops, rather than beings issued by a quartermaster. That being the case can we know for sure no one ever bought one with a blued scabbard? If you could choose to splash out and pay for the stag horn grips, maybe you could buy the "commerical" blued scabbard over the counter?
Who know what went on in a shop in 1930 something? Tomes on manufacturer specifications are helpful to a point but may not always reflect what actually happened when items were bought. Would a shop owner refuse to sell a "commercial" scabbard if paired with a dress bayonet? I have no idea, but keep an open mind.
Hi, Just a quick couple of comments if I may? I am in full agreement with "Anderson". I have about 60 of these walking out side arms with a number of variation scabbards ranging from bog standard black enamel and blued and including military combat style scabbards and with securing screws in both side and front centre positions. If you take a look at the excellent thread "They would never have worn that" you will see totally unbelievable combinations in uniforms, caps and insignia etc. shown in contemporary photographs of the period. This strikes me as just another "variation" and probably of the period at that. Personally, I can see no reason why a civilian supplier would not "sell" whatever the customer wanted. Alternatively, a soldier with a damaged scabbard scrounges a spare military scabbard from his mate in the armoury? I am inclined to accept these would be "marriages" at face value and would always prefer a bayonet with a "possibly" spurious scabbard than one without a scabbard. Hope I am not treading on any toes.
Regards Michael R
Speaking generally I understand the points being made, with another fairly recent discussion addressing the switching back and forth of black enameled scabbards for HJ knives to blued and back again from my perspective very educational because I'm still learning. Also having seen over the years a number of not only inappropriately (IMO) switched scabbards for dress bayonets sometimes including the inappropriate addition (IMO) of military issue/purchased frogs to said dress bayonets - but as Michael indicated who knows how or when it happened? With my usual problem with some of the marriages being the fact that the dress bayonets are noticeably narrower than the issue types and therefore not fitting the scabbards very well. With perhaps a not very well known fact being that some of the early "Commercial" S. 84/98 bayonets for a brief period were manufactured with narrower blades and scabbards than the standard German Army types. With my point being that I think there may be some time sensitive factors that should also be taken into account on a case by case basis. And if they historically manufactured narrower "Commercial" S. 84/98 scabbards why didn't retailers purchase them instead of the wider military issue types? Best Regards, Fred
Hi Frogprince, Yes, I am in full agreement with you (as usual). It would certainly make more sense for the seller, if he is prepared to sell blued military style scabbards to his buyers, to carry a stock of the narrow throat type in order to effect a more secure fit for the blade od a side arm. Having said that, I also have some walking out side arms with heavier and broader blades? Buyer's prerogative perhaps or possibly a slightly earlier produced weapon of superior production for a far smaller army? I am inclined to be tolerant of marriages and not too dismissive. Given that the German Military had several milion men in the ranks and wearing uniforms I would find it hard to believe that not one single soldier ever mismatched his combat bayonet creating mismatched serial numbers or mismatched his walking out side arm? I suppose that it all boils down to how pedantic the collector is. An interesting conversation regardless of points of view!!
Hi Frogprince, Yes, I am in full agreement with you (as usual). It would certainly make more sense for the seller, if he is prepared to sell blued military style scabbards to his buyers, to carry a stock of the narrow throat type in order to effect a more secure fit for the blade od a side arm. Having said that, I also have some walking out side arms with heavier and broader blades? Buyer's prerogative perhaps or possibly a slightly earlier produced weapon of superior production for a far smaller army? I am inclined to be tolerant of marriages and not too dismissive. Given that the German Military had several milion men in the ranks and wearing uniforms I would find it hard to believe that not one single soldier ever mismatched his combat bayonet creating mismatched serial numbers or mismatched his walking out side arm? I suppose that it all boils down to how pedantic the collector is. An interesting conversation regardless of points of view!!
cheers and best wishes Michael
Hello Michael,
In agreement, I think that the variables seen with the private purchases has a lot to do with the latitude makers were given with such things as adding stag grips, etchings etc. - not unlike to a somewhat limited extent that seen with German Army officer’s swords. In other words they were not ‘milspec’d’ like the issue types to conform to a specific single pattern hilt or blade length and actually fit on rifles. With an early period document giving makers the latitude to use either the blued or black painted finish on scabbards (which is why I mentioned the time sensitive nature of the matter).
I also don’t have a problem with mismatching per se having seen factory mismatched service bayonets (very rare) and what were probably field mismatches given the fact that German Army armorers had tools and spare parts kits and/or the uncertainties of war especially near the end. That said, the Germans when overhauling service bayonets at the higher echelon Depots did renumber to match, with for example this example that came out off Norway starting with a 1927 Weimar bayonet, a “K” date scabbard from another maker, and circa 1938 black Bakelite grips etc. So while I do like the all matched OEM bayonets, I could not pass up acquiring this one which has seen a lot happen in its lifetime.
Hi Fred, We speak as one!!!!!!!! One thing that I would add as a matter of interest, I recall reading about a section of infantry troops and a new arrival straight from training with new kit was killed in his first few days. The remainder of his section plundered his brand new kit for whatever they required, logic? A suggested scenario. Adolph snaps the tip off his 84/98 whilst opening a tin of beans and has the opportunity to take a bayonet from a dearly departed. I would suggest that rather than stripping his LFO to remove his old scabbard and doing the same to the other chap he would just throw his bayonet away and put the other fellow's bayonet straight into his old but serviceable scabbard? Just a thought. I meant to go into the garage today and taks some sidarm photos but forgot. I will try and do it tomorrow.
by tkissinger
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