the 607 marked with muzzle ring i think were made ca. 1941. ... only for a short time...
the 607 marked with muzzle ring i think were made ca. 1941. ... only for a short time...
then the z doppelcircle without muzzle ring came... with 607 or mainly with A80 marking
the scabbards always stampes with WaA 63
Here is one with a different WaA Stamp on the frog stud...
Hello,
I’m going to have to go back into my notes/documentation etc. for confirmation of some items. But my recollection is that Bystrica caused a fair amount of trying to figure out the timing of the stages of its early contribution to the Wehrmacht. Whereas with Brno the 1940 “945” coded G.33/40 carbines left no doubt. With the question here I think, being more of one about the possibility of the overlapping of markings from one year to another(?). And a report of some Vz. 24 rifles going back to Germany in 1939 to be evaluated for conversion to the German standard. Which took place with some selected examples, and some discussion elsewhere of Czech style markings on rifles from Bystrica in 1940 using both the 655 and 607 Waffenamts. I’ve also never personally seen a factory no muzzle ring 607 marked bayonet that was not a conversion IMO of one kind or another. But if they are out there, I would imagine that they would be with blued blades/crossguards that were not sandblasted first.
As for the frog stud markings, my experience is that the large WaA63 can be seen with both of the earlier Brno and Bystrica bayonets, and a smaller number of the early A80 types. But with Bystrica only - also having an intermediate size Eagle 63, and the smallest size Eagle/63 Waffenamt with the 42/43 dot bayonets. With the Czech ČSZ marking seen on both export, and Czech Army bayonets. With an example here of an OEM ČSZ/1924 dated Czech Army acceptance marked bayonet, to its right a German one from Bystrica, and the noticeably smallest version of the Eagle/63 stamps with the “dot” bayonet to the far right for side by side comparison purposes.
Best Regards, Fred
Between Fred and Sleepwalker you will find out about anything you want to know about TR issued Bayonets especially the captured and foreign issued ones there knowledge and pieces they can show is valuable to other collectors like myself. timothy
Fred, Yes, the very same and long lost Jim PHello Jim,
It's the search for answers for just about everything that I collect (or have collected at some point) that I also find interesting - if you haven't guessed that by now . Which I'm sure you have - and are you the same Jim P. that I seem to recall from the now vanished MCF?
This thread perfectly illustrates what I missed about a good forum where like minded collectors can share the info the have in the hopes of filling in the pieces of the bayonet "puzzle". You gentlemen have probably made this one of the most informative threads on the S 24t out in the public eye. Who wouldn't want to know everything there is to know about their bayonet or any other item in their collection for that matter. If your not in it for the history you'll never get the full satisfaction out of it IMO.
Jim
Hello long lost Jim,
There were some good educational threads on that forum covering all sorts of daggers, swords, and blades in general. And it's too bad that they also vanished, although I did manage to archive a small portion for a few items, although I now wish that it had been more.
Hello Sleepwalker,
One other piece of the puzzle that I forgot to mention were some production totals from Czechoslovakia that were reported in 1940. Roughly 30,000 G.33/40 carbines, and just under 80,000 G.24(t) rifles. And while the Brno (Brünn) factory was assigned a '945' number code after its absorption by Germany, (Považská) Bystrica was not - with both getting their separate letter codes (dot/dou) in April of 1941.
Best Regards to All, Fred
Brünn gets... after the S/Code 945 the also letter code "z" ... then dot/dou
Interessting, that the export sign of Brünn was z in circle before 1938.
But after 1939 this code ware added by single and double circle because of the factory place Brünn and Bystrica.
Hello,by Sleepwalker
Export ......... yes and no. The 1930‘s Persian contract while serial numbered (in Farsi) to the rifles, had (from memory without checking it) unmarked ricassos with only a small circle/Z marking elsewhere. With the ČSZ marking used on the ricassos and frog studs of the Czech Army bayonets, and various export models. And the 1924 dated Vz.24 bayonet that I posted (in addition to the ČSZ markings) it has the Circle/Z mark on the crossguard - not that distinct in the image, it's in between the two rivets. With the Czech Army bayonet blade acceptance marking itself moved from the ricasso to the spine/handle on later examples. And without looking at them for specific locations: My recollection of the the Vz.24, G.33/40, and G.24(t) rifles themselves is that have similar Circle/Z markings scattered about on some of the various parts. Although that could possibly be time sensitive for the later manufacture German examples(?).
With the point noted on the 945 number code (no ‘S’ ), that it was the same general type of stamp used for the “945” marked Romanian contract bayonets. Which was on the opposite side of the Circle/Z (the same Circle/Z ricasso marking as was used on the WaA63 marked Brno bayonets). And the double circle/Z used IMO as a manufacturers identification marking to differentiate (Považská) Bystrica from Brünn (Brno) as an aid or in lieu of the different prewar identifiers. With Bystrica itself a later addition to CZ manufacturing capacity, with the first order I think in 1936 although it wasn’t until 1937 that they began to make deliveries.
With my apologies for the old very poor quality photo - there is one other thing that might be seen with a CZ contract. Here is a side by side image of a German Army “dot 43" bayonet side by side with a Romanian “dot 43” marked Vz.24, blued with a full muzzle ring and a sandblasted blade and muzzle ring. Also having the Romanian acceptance marking - but no (zero) Waffenamts. With the point I am trying to get across here being that under the occupation Brno tended to use whatever German codes were assigned (ie: 945 - dot). Whereas Bystrica used more of a commercial type of trademark like the double/circle Z. And very likely scaled back or terminated bayonet production as it (Bystrica) was changing its focus to the mass production of the Kar. 98k.
Best Regards, Fred
As always a good threads from Frogprince and Sleepwalker, unfortunally some small errors as not totally informed about czechoslovak production, Z in circle is marking used as control mark since beginn of production of Zbrojovka Brno in 1919. In early 30 ies it was used already on some export bayonets,the using on export production is also confirmed, and has nothing with germans, as germans never occupied Zbrojovka Brno, the majority of state join stocks was commerzially buyed by Hermann Goering consortium, that wins the majority. Thats all, the Waffenwerke Bruenn remained a owned by actioneers, certainly influence of war production was large. Romanian contract was already signed and realised. The production of plant II Povazska Bystrica in Slovakia was partly controled by state and there must be some negotiations made between ZB and Slovak state. To differ production was used the doubble circle stamp. Povazska Bystrica made the scabbards too. But it was completed in Brno. So the E/63 proofs, but it doesnt mean PB dont made scabbards. PB was in reality a ammunition plant and is older as ZB in Brno. Same as the change of barell ring on E/607 was realised in the period as exist normal ringed, deringed and no ring produced bayonets. For Romanian contract were used partly slovakian accepted bayonets.
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