Need help with Nazi Chromed bayonet. Is it real?

[Frogprince]

The dress sidearms labeled in sales catalogs as "Extra-Seitengewehre" were just that - accessories to uniforms privately purchased by soldiers to be worn off duty. With one interesting factor that I saw in an export catalog being that dress sidearms were sold at a fraction of the price of the plain military service types. Which makes sense when you think about it, as the military types had to withstand the rigors of combat and needed to be manufactured to a higher standard.

With what I found very interesting was the emblem on the dress bayonet. Clearly an add on as the grip area underneath it has a rough appearance when it should be perfectly preserved. With some kind of device in the center of the swastika. A portion of which seemed to me to vaguely resemble a theodolite - but who knows?? FP

[mercerrich]

I sincerely appreciate your time and comments. Good thoughts all.

I do resepect that you have been around the block far more than me on these type of items. However: Please allow me a retort which is purely based upon this old man's closer observations of this knife (after respectfully regards of your statement). I have made an effort to apply my years of experience buying antiques like guns, canes, lures & coin in regards to estimating their value due to observable wear.

QUOTE " With what I found very interesting was the emblem on the dress bayonet. Clearly an add on as the grip area underneath it has a rough appearance when it should be perfectly preserved." UNQUOTE

Makes partial sense. I can only offer this as to the "perfectly preserved" part. Do you have perfectly photographic closeup of preserved grips from the same factory that we may compare to these please? I sense that what you call "unpreserved" tips of the checkering below the emblem is probably the normal result of imperfect diamond points formed from the original factory molding process for "heated rubber" molding allowing for shrikage during cooling then drying. (I say rubber simple because, that is what they are refered to generally plus the grips do not shine nor feel like a baklite type plastic material of later war useage.) I resist using a heated pin to pierce them for proof as to what they might be. Which factory's pritinely preserved grips may we compare it to? But, after all is said, this human admits to being wrong many times in his passge from youth to old codger.

May I furher suggest from what I have observed regarding to your statement as to wear on the tips of the checkering, if you can look closely in the pictures, as I have can do in reality here, there is no different level of wear to the diamond tips of the checkering when compared to the "un-reachable resesses" along the borders of the crossguard nor along the under edges of the pommel. Would not these area be less handled than on the accessible surface tips? This includes the reverse side of the grips.

Are you able to observe that along the outer edges of the grips at the tang, where the greatest wear would likely occur, that those edges are well preserved too, un-rounded along the length and clearly defined? Now I agree the unworn, brass emblem had to placed over the checkering after it was formed, but I see zero excessive wear evident to the grip area almost beneath the brass any differently than un-exposed areas. So could it make sense that the emblem was placed on the grips at the near the same time as the handles were installed? And the brass is not worn on the edges from handling, and all tiny, very defining detail inside the brass is still clear, unsalted and unworn. Hince: I suggest that the grips and the emblem were associated to each other at the stages of time, ergo wear.

(I am guessing you meant by the word "device" in the center of the emblem that it is not an addition item inset in it, but a logo or design.)

Please know how much I deeply appreciate all thoughts reagrding this piece. I know you have placed your talent and time against it.

It is nice to know it was valued as an acessory by someone maybe either in or not in the actual miltary of the period. If not an issued item as suggested - could anyone buy these accessories? A catalog was mentioned. Were these known to have been bulk produced and exported in quantity to other countries or sent per each commisioned seperately? Or maybe presented or mailed per unit. Can't see the guy at the front appreciating this one if it wouldn't fit his Mauser. (Kinda large for a letter opener to the folks back home in Berlin.) Wish it could talk.

But basically cutting through all the jazz, so far - does it seems to be period correct and probably a real item made in or near Nazi Germany at or about the WW2 timetable?

Sincere Thanks, Rich Mercer

[Wagriff]

Personally, I have never come across such an item over all the years, but having said that, I Do like it and, in my opinion, the emblem is quite likely genuine and period. It's meaning and purpose is, for the moment, unknown, but it must mean Something, to have gone to the trouble of having it affixed. Obviously, it's a German WWII Dress Bayonet, so there would be no need to "Nazi it up" to sell it as something it's not. That would make little common sense. It could well have been made as a one of a kind embellishment either by the owner Or the factory for whoever owned this thing. In regards to the marking in the center of the swaz, I suspect that it likely a group of letters that have been combined into a symbol-just what the abbreviation may have stood for is, again, unknown. It could even possibly have been the owners initials...?

[mercerrich]

Thanks WAGRIFF. for the detailed observations and the knowledgeable comments. PAR: Mystery continues, but with more possible clues to worm out of their holes. Thanks, RICH MERCER

[Jerry B]

Can you post a better high res pic of the Swaztika on the grip please? It does look to have been added to it and as no one seems to have seen this before it could be a period personal addition, though the area of the grip does look to be damaged, possibly from melting/degradation by the use of an adhesive to affix it. It might well be period done as many Vets pimped the items they brought back, or it could have been done in a more recent period, as from the pics posted the quality of the brass work does not look typical for TR period workmanship IMO

[Larry C]

Quote Mercerrich= I know you have placed your talent and time against it... (End quote)

This is not the case here and purely we are here to examine and protect the collector. There have been many observations of your bayonet none of which I feel have been in attacking in nature. If I misunderstood your statement above,, then my apologies. I can only support mostly the German craftmanship of that time and I can not say it was not less than perfect. An HJ dagger is a great example of of precise cutting, as is the same for the bayonet grip you show. IMO I do not believe this to be a factory made application,, but one made by either the original person who carried it or what has been said above as a recent fix. There is much diamond loss to the upper left quadrant of the swaz leg and the lower right also. Since the diamonds are cut to the vertical direction,, why would there be a loss? The upper right and lower left would be more acceptable of a diamond loss in the the position of the square area. ( Bond points this out!!)
The edges of the diamond cut area of an HJ dagger have no loss except to have a cut into effect or worn by the carrier. An early SA/SS dagger around the grip eagle is a perfect example of precise cutting,, depending upon the maker,, and yes I did say maker,, but any maker IMO would not make a half hearted attempt to apply a personalized swaz and leave the areas in between worn down. Many collectors have seen the differences between professional and beginner personalized apps. This example can either be from a proud soldier--------OR----------an add on just after the war or further on. We also know what happens when certain glues are used that have an adverse effect on plastics and materials like this. Whos to say! Freds observations of the emblem makes much sense also as this would look more runic in appearance than NSDAP.
Swasitkas to this very day as you know are still being used widely , mostly in Asian Countries as a good luck symbol,, of the sun. Your post Mercerrich is most excellent in commentary and is a great generator of discussion,,concerning personalized examples of many types. It is what is not normally seen that unseats us the most as collectors. In depth study of the rare examples usually brings to light the real truth,,and talking about it in this capacity is the best part of collecting. Below are 2 examples of German craftmanship. Take a look around the eagle of the SA dagger as there is no margin for error when these eagles were applied,, and the craftmanship speaks for itself. Best regards Larry

[mercerrich]

LARRY
Thank you for the in-depth education and extremely valuable response. I truly see all your points as valid and except them all unconditionally. I have taken the request of BOND and posted more pictures in detail of the brass eblem that was fixed after the grips were produced.
Allow me to add these probable conclusions from what I have so far read here or observed. What are your thoughts?
1) I too now believe the grips show much wear.
2) Because the brass emblem is affixed off centers (in relation the sides of grips and below center relating to the rivets) is this a not a factory effort, and would be a "NON- PROFESSIONAL" job by most standards, but it is so very obvious. Why would someone take all the time to do this and yet be so very off center?
3) The emblem is bent in one direction only to match the curve of the grip, not flat. Someone had to bent it to match the curve. No adhesive is showing. And is it a pin driven attachement or is it a "glued" attachement? So is the central letters in cast brass emblem read from the handle pointing up?
4)BRASS EMBLEM: The innermost (at center square) design, initials, or logo is part of the casting of the brass, not a different casting or additional stamping.
6)The design on the Ricasso seems hand-etched (cut) not stamped. Again a clue as to an individual's attempt at personallization?
)7 The Ricasso design's cut and edges seems done per sharpened engaving tool by a semi-skilled person but due to nice arc.
Q: Has anyone noticed that part of the design above the arc looks similar to the top of the CHINESE / Taoism Yin verses Yang sign / logo? Including the off center dot beloiw? Not quie but similar. Attachment 372992Just a willd guess about Tao symbol for dark vs light.
Q: Is the brass emblem stamped out or cast and polished. It is two toned too darker in the insets.
Q: Is the central design in the brass a numeral 1 with a cross. And a plaque on the cross (Empty Christain cross verses body on a Catholic cross).

Again, Than you. RICH MERCER
Pictures Follow. Again, thnaks for such a great amount of knowledge placed forth on helping to define the history and value of this piece.Attachment 372986Attachment 372987Attachment 372988Attachment 372989Attachment 372990Attachment 372991

- - Updated - -

THANK YOU BOND: I AGREE WITH ALL YOU SAY AND HERE ARE MORE PICTURES BELOW IN REPLY TO LARRY C. I WANT SO BAD TO PRY THE BRASS FROM THE GRIP TO SEE HOW IT AFFIXED - PINNED VS. GLUE. OBVIOUSLY A NON FACTORY AFTER MARKET EFFORT. BUT I WON'T.

[mercerrich]

I do not know the amount of help this will be, hopefully not a distraction from seeking the facts, but ...
my next ddor neighnor, my best friend, Joe Fischer, SENIOR DESIGNER for MACK TRUCKS, who died instantly and unexpectedly at 46 from a massive heart attack and left these to me.Joe was a very avid collector. He had inherited collections for his family. He had over 100 mauser rifles and WW2 guns (I recieved four) and Miltary gear. Plus the estate's records show that he willed or left his widow over 50 Nazi tagged items like flags helmts, ivory handled daggers, bayonets, uniforms, etc. This doesn't count coins, stamps, unusual tools, antique gunsmithing equipment and Colt pre-1898 revolvers. etc. So I do find it interesting that he would have collected this bayonet, which is so different and so unidentifiable so far. He used to rant about fakers and loathed them. I sure wish Joe was here to tell me what this bayonet meant to him. Where and from whom got it I will probably never know. Is it fake , repro, or from the German War era? Still don't know. Might never know. But thanks for your efforts guys no matter the outcome. Actually : Because I am closer to the end than the middle of my travels, i would like to at least put some reliable info to it - good or bad - on this piece before I part with it. RICH MERCER

[mercerrich]

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[Scout]

For what its worth, it doesnt look like a fake 'stepping out' bayo. Its just that the swastika looks like an add on. Either by the owner or by a GI.
But I can add nothing to the excellent comments above - the guys 'in the know' has pretty much said it all.
Allow me to compliment you on your first post in the thread; excellent pics and ditto description. So rarely does anybody take the time. Often only a fuzzy pic is posted. This was a horse of a different colour.

Keep up the good work and post some more items for us to admire.
Sorry to hear about your friend.