SS Walking out dress bayonet ?

[Pascal BERNHARD]

Period doc about the : "Kulturzeichen"

[Larry C]

Hi Pascal....Im somewhat limited in German..and its even harder for me to try to decipher this old Gothic script. Could you give us a translation into that article..or give us an idea..what it means? Thank you Regards Larry

[Frogprince]

Hello Larry, I would love to see a contemporary translation of the text myself from Pascal as one (myself) who also has a problem with the old style script, and even a version of the German text in a more modern script.

That said - what Joe Wotka wrote when he first posted the information is as follows:

................ "I am attaching a portion of the article that identifies the trademark of the sole identified firm authorized to make and distribute the SS-Polizeidegens, as well as the Kulturziechen of the SS, both of which prospective purchasers are informed should be found on the end of the blade. Also attached is a photo of the hilt and scabbard drag configurations of both of the SS-Police swords. Notice the source of the photo: Krebs. This of course was the original designated manufacturer and retailer of the swords. Another photo that was too dark to copy shows the two trademarks: the lobster below the Kulturzeichen of the SS."................

Noting that it says nothing about Professor Karl Diebitsch, which is also a fact with the other period references cited in that thread.

And in correspondence, and the thread, Joe also discusses personal files from the RFSS Himmler that he researched that provide some additional background material - with zero references to Prof. Diebitsch. So a current translation I think would be very helpful the next time the topic of an alleged connection to Professor Karl Diebitsch come up in a discussion. Best Regards to All, Fred

[Larry C]

Also seen in support of the placement of the Kulturzeichen...it again is placed obscurely out of view ..as seen on this authentic Julleuchter. This marking is placed beneath the foot of the stand.

( Credit: Lakesidetrader )

Chained SS daggers they are placed on the back of the lower tab



and SS Swords they are placed on the top of the scabbard throat opening and Under the "D" crossguard

( credit : left to right WRF member Virathus and Wittmann Militaria

[Wilhelm Saris]

Here my translation for the note about how to mark:

The manufacturing and sale of the SS-police sword (leaders and NCO) is transferred to a specialized concern. To avoid any (form) of misuse, it is needed over and over again, when purchasing to demand for the required, regulated sword and to pay attention for the trademark (the lobster) and the SS-symbol for culture. Both symbols be the trademark and should be positioned at the upper end from the top of the blade. By drawing the sword from the scabbard (about 4.0 cm) the both symbols will become visible.

The name Diebitsch, mentioned in some posts is not mentioned in the note. The manufacturer should be Krebs, as the photo with the two sowrds says (Peter Daniel Krebs from Solingen). This concern held the RZM permission M7/92. I do not know from what date the note is, but Krebs was no longer mentioned having an RZM permission in 1938. The note however in NO WAY mentions the RZM sign should be visible.
It is up to you guys if the symbols are done as demanded for !

[Pascal BERNHARD]

Thanks for all the additional information!

[Sleepwalker]

Hello,

yes a top original Information. This is the only way to illuminate such circumstances.

In the text it is very good explained...the "Kulturzeichen" is a trademark (=Schutzmarke) of the desing. Diebitsch ist not the maker... it was the desingner.

But the Symbol of Allach Pottery or the ring is not the same as on daggers and swords.... the box is missing.. and this is a important fact.

[Frogprince]

Hello,

yes a top original Information. This is the only way to illuminate such circumstances.

In the text it is very good explained...the "Kulturzeichen" is a trademark (=Schutzmarke) of the desing. Diebitsch ist not the maker... it was the desingner.

But the Symbol of Allach Pottery or the ring is not the same as on daggers and swords.... the box is missing.. and this is a important fact.

Wilhelm, Thank you for the translation. The information that in 1938 Krebs no longer had RZM permission until now was unknown to me. Not that it necessarily IMO would have affected the swords as being outside the scope of the original edict that specified the HJ knives, political daggers etc.

As for the ceramics by Allach, the marking is seen being applied in the SS-FM Zeitschrift article/photo that was supplied by Robin Lumsden that calls it: “SS-Zeichen der Manufaktur" also with no mention of Prof. Diebitsch. With a similar result for SS jewelry items. And it has a slightly different orientation - but for the ceramics comes both with and without a box (as seen posted in the ceramics from Theodore Karner at the top of the image). A number items having the names of the actual designers, many of which are listed in the SS-FM Zeitschrift article. With the attached image one of those from a now long lost GDC thread I posted on Allach markings that was loosely related to the M 1936 chain set article I posted from more or less about the same time period. (Still having most if not all of the images including one with the name Diebitsch as the designer of that particular piece of ceramics from Allach.)

Diebitsch is acknowledged as a painter and for designing some items personally for Himmler. But the link from him to a number of other items that allegedly were his designs because they had “his mark” has never been proven at this late date from TR period sources. Is today that day ? …………. I personally doubt it - but now that the topic has been raised again who knows? Best Regards to All, Fred

(PS: Some German Police swords from specific makers don't have the box, and neither do any of the swords from Dachau with no SS stamped markings at all like about 1/2 the Police swords - but I don't really want to go off on a tangent.)

[Larry C]

Thankyou Fred in support of the Kulturzeichen position on the bottom of these Allach Items.