1st pattern Luftwaffe scabbard question

[gerrit]

My 2 cents

no 1st type ever left the factory without leather on its scabbard.
It also doesnt make any sense having an early solid nickel chain and fittings and then having a late zinq based dagger in it.
I do have seen quite a few that missed their leather and to cover that up the vets or collectors painted them.
Its Always up the buyer....and what he feels thats possible and what he believes.

For me daggers like the 2 mentioned in this post arent ones that i would buy, but i guess its all comes back to its price....and buyers believe..
I Always say: buy the dagger not the story
Ger

[Lakesidetrader]

The trouble with a thread like this is people making statements using words like "never" or "ever". Just because you've never seen one does not mean they do not exist. We are all learning here. I have seen several late 1st model WKC's that had a blue canvas covering on the scabbards. If you ask a guy like Witty he will confirm this. Don't like 'em? Don't buy them. A closed mind in the hobby is not a great thing.

[dr73]

I'm pretty open minded when it comes to daggers but I have my limits I don't question that you have seen a lot of daggers Paul but the question here is, did this particular dagger leave the factory this way? I find that hard to believe. I'm sorry.

Regards
Danny

[Lakesidetrader]

I think that's great that you are open minded and I encourage you to go to the very experienced guys in the hobby. Ask them next show you got to. Guys like Burmeister, Witty or Joey P who have owned thousands of 1st lufts between them. You may be surprised that there is much to learn that's not on the forums.
Anyways here's a late war WKC with canvas leather, a know variation. BTW, IMHO the aluminum 1st lufts were the final ones and came after the zinc models

[Larry C]

That's where there is a great divide and have seen so much of this ....on the forums myself that such information does exist yet much it is held back or kept secret so as the forums will do further damage to the hobby and the belief that there IS more out there we don't know about.

I have always encouraged many to share their thoughts yet some keep it hidden to not give way to fakers. This is all very well and noble ..but still hurts the collector in the long run.
The forums are fortunate for the small handful of dealers who do share their knowledge and we are grateful for that.

The divide I see and always has been in the Hatfield and McCoys... Between dealers and collectors ..an ongoing feud not on every forum . but isolated cells from time to time. Not all collectors are knowledged as some dealers are the same.

This is the part where I hope one day that both sides of the fence can meet in the middle and further complete this Third Reich puzzle together.

I have seen some amazing stuff surface from both dealers and collectors. And if there is to be an open mind, the time would be the present .

History can only write as fast as it is , presented ..which is why the unknown authentic in some cases causes doubt and distress.

I have always said never say never in this hobby until all avenues have been exhausted through study and research. You just never know. Its a fine line to walk sometimes and even the greatest of dealers and collectors have either exalted or fallen by learning through experience.
I love this hobby and threads like these

Regards Larry

[PeterCollector]

At the first, I think everybody can leave a comment and opinion about items - in this case Luftwaffe dagger - which he collect. And if 5 collectors write into thread, that they never saw something similar, I can say conclusion, that it is very rare and uncommon thing, or just there is something wrong with this item.

Now lets go back to the begining, to the A. Wingen dagger, if you look closely you can see that under the scabard bands is still rests of old leather! Please look at picture wich I post below. Yo can clearly see that rest of old leather is still there, and there is no way that this exact Wingen dagger leave factory without it. And with this one dagger you can´t say that there are daggers, which were produce without leather on scabbard and this Wingen dagger is the same think...

Next, I know that many famous dealers just don´t care what collectors on various forums says, but many collectors on forums takce care what are dealers selling! And that is different. Almost each, big dealer sold thinks in the past which were not textbook (and I mean for example parts daggers) and sometimes well made reproductions - so in other hand I can place here this argument, that if somebody even don´t know what is selling, because he made some mistakes in the past, how he can teach me if the dagger (or anything else) must have som special features or not. And I saw many many stupid things which big militaria dealers did...!

The dagger, which is posted later by Mr. Paul, well that is something different, it is strong proof, that this daggers were in some cases produced without scabbard, it looks genuine to me - despite the fact I never saw anything similar before. But I´m not focused on 1st. models Luftwaffe dagger and I only have one in my collection and about few had in hands in past. But I have to say thank you for this lesson. And if everybody just find som time to put a proof of what he is saying - that will be very good

Best regards

Peter

[rbminis]

Now lets go back to the begining, to the A. Wingen dagger, if you look closely you can see that under the scabard bands is still rests of old leather! Please look at picture wich I post below. Yo can clearly see that rest of old leather is still there, and there is no way that this exact Wingen dagger leave factory without it.

I agree, see post #2.
Ralph.

It looks like this is the remnants of the glue for the leather wrap. The middle fitting appears to have a gap between the scabbard and the fitting. The bottom of the upper fitting looks like the remains of the wrap can still be seen there. It looks like it has been trimmed off at the bottom of the upper fitting. IMO.
Ralph.

[Frogprince]

I think that's great that you are open minded and I encourage you to go to the very experienced guys in the hobby. Ask them next show you got to. Guys like Burmeister, Witty or Joey P who have owned thousands of 1st lufts between them. You may be surprised that there is much to learn that's not on the forums.
Anyways here's a late war WKC with canvas leather, a know variation. BTW, IMHO the aluminum 1st lufts were the final ones and came after the zinc models

As for zinc versus aluminum, for myself it's just a question of looking at the available documentation and doing the math. Along with the original published restriction regarding coppper no longer going to be available, aluminum was specified as an acceptable substitute. And we see post the large number of nickel silver Luftwaffe accepted blades, large numbers of the Luftwaffe accepted aluminum types (both daggers and swords). With the Luftwaffe regulations changing we see also the early aluminum so-called 2nd models with the Luftwaffe accceptance stamps. So it's back to the regulations and some research on the Luftwaffe and how, when and where it was expanding. With my point being that I would love to see some facts that explain why we don't large numbers of the zinc based so-called 1st model daggers (and swords) with Luftwaffe acceptance stamps supposedly from the "mid" period when the Luftwaffe was expanding so quickly?? As an aside - I would be remiss to not mention that badges/medals were also affected, and that the quality of the zinc itself went downhill ............... in the "mid" period??? Best Regards, Fred