Two Luftwaffe 1st pattern daggers

[alex gross]

Hi!
Two of mine dagger collection.
Two different first pattern dagger. Dissimilar leather and color, pommel sizes, material of crossguards, swastikas, balls olc and gesch marks,
Helbig and Höller makers.
Everything looks fine with these daggers?

[PeterCollector]

Sorry, but I don't thing that both daggers are authentic. Maybe some parts yes, but crossguard and pommel are really bad

Peter

[alex gross]

I was affraid of that. I think you are speaking about the Höller dagger's pommel and crossguard, right?

[Larry C]

also the Logos.... the FA Helbig logo..I have never seen a darkened one and would assume that was a recent paint. The Etch this one " Gaefeler" ...were always very shallow and light in appearance.

The both appear to be messed with Peter is the forums advanced Luft dagger researcher.

Regards Larry

[alex gross]

Hi Larry!
Just oil sludge on the Helbig dagger...

[alex gross]

Shoot some photos of the Höller's crossguard...

[PeterCollector]

Hi Alex,

I apologize for my late reply, I don´t have much free time - work and family, so I can´t answer sooner. In my opinion both daggers are completely well made reproductions - yes all fittings and blades looks like fakes to me.

At the first - Holler - pommel and crossguard are ugly - many inperfections, really bad sunwheel swastikas! Grip is also bad, incorect type of wire and strange laather cover. Blade - marker mark is not etched, but it looks like engraving - which is in my opinion also incorect.

Next Helbig dagger - pommel and crossguard, well made aluminum reproductions - extremely dangerous! Gilding is arificially removed and whole daggers looks like it was worn during the period - but all that marks are just good try by fakers Marker mark - I agree with Larry - I never saw this type of Helbig mark - this producer made his logo by hand and authentic examples has mostly a lot of differences. And I also never saw darkened Helbig mark.

I´m mostly focus on Army and Luftwaffe 2nd. model daggers - so opinion above is just my observation. If there is somebody who dissagre with me, please post a comment, maybe all of us become smarter

Best regards

Peter

[alex gross]

Hi Peter!
You are the expert, but too much devils in my story.
Höller is right. Bad crossguard, pommel, grip etc.

I think it is the Helbig 100% authentic dagger. Bad earlier photos, used, rusty, partly denazified, blade is make-uped with dark oil and ragged...
Here come the new and better photos for the maker mark, amt and grinding parts:

[PeterCollector]

Hi Alex,
no I´m not expert on 1st. Model Luftwaffe daggers so as I wrote you above, it is only my opinion, so my words are not written in steel

Ok, now lets go back to your daggers. First thank you for much better close up photos, now everything is clear now. Pommel and crossguard are damaged, badly damaged. It looks like somebody try to polished of all gilding? or polished whole swastika, but then he left his work unfinished In the past I saw several aluminum 1st. model very well made reproductions, so that is why I use to think they are fake - now - I´m just not sure for 100% Blade is plated and marker mark is darkened, I never saw darkened Helbig mark like this (but I never saw many thinks and they are authentic). Alex, please if it is possible, send me photo of blade tang.

Best regards

Peter

[gerrit]

Alex here are my 2 cents: sorry to say but imo this is a total fake.
Swastika's, grip and logo do not meet the Helbig standards in appereance and production.

This logo is the first vBIG red flag, and not Helbig made, its way to deep and its blackened, not Helbig style.
Just compare it with this one:

Regards
Ger