Concentration Camp Prisoner's Uniforms

**Gernika81** · 05-26-2013, 05:25 PM

Hi there. I am a KL items collector and for 7 years now I have gathered a great collection. However, I have some doubts regarding some KL inmate uniforms I've been buying from a guy in USA. I would like to know your impressions on these jackets and trousers I have. I think it's time to get some expert opinions in case I must ask for a refund. I don't want to have fakes in my collection, and this area of collecting is a complete minefield. Maybe some of you know if these have any chance to be original or not. I know that some kind of fabrics were more common. Mine are not that kind of thick fabric, but thinner one, like those used in summer. All opinions are welcome, but please, if possible expert opinions, as we are talking about something serious. Asking a refund must have a solid basis. (I hope all are original indeed). Let's go.

**douglas2496** · 05-26-2013, 06:47 PM

Hi there, welcome to the forum. As you will see from the first page of this thread, I have been visiting concentration camp museums and photographing their collections in some detail. Most of these pictures are good enough for you to see the weave of the cloth, and it would be sensible to compare these carefully with your items. KL striped uniform tended to be quiet standardized.

These items do strike me as highly suspect. None look to be of quiet the right material, they look a little new and the insignia looks very suspicious. Several jackets are clearly not KL issue (the non striped ones) and I don't see how such items could possibly be regarded as genuine without good provenance. I really think this whole lot is fake im sorry to say. I will be very interested to hear other opinions however.

Douglas

**CARL** · 05-26-2013, 06:52 PM

My initial thoughts are not good I am afraid. One of my sources for information regarding the authenticity is a recognised expert on the cloth materials worn by prisoners of the Konzentrationslagers. I can tell you that the vast majority of articles were printed on both sides of the cloth, i.e. the coloured stripes. Remember that museum displays often show reproduction pieces too - to preserve their original collections in safe locations, and we should take this into account when we encounter examples that lack the printing on both sides of the garment. There are many examples offered on eBay and the like, which lack the features or correct insignia placement of genuine pieces - some of those shown above are similar to those available on these sites. The Jewish insignia shown above is patently incorrect - the triangles are correct in that the yellow triangle is below the red triangle, but they are upside down. The chart shown earlier in the thread augments this. The standard regarding the serial number placement is also that the number strip should be below the Winkel, not above - but variations are evident. I also have doubts regarding the "P" and serial number shown in the first images you posted - they almost appear written by a modern marker pen, whilst the stitching does not match know period pieces either. I have never encountered a genuine piece with such a large "KL" marking on the back - it perhaps was an attempt to create a suspected escape planner's uniform? They were designated by large targets that were either sewn or hand painted onto the chest and back of a garment.

**StefanM** · 05-26-2013, 06:59 PM

The stencil numerals in the "1504" prompts the question what is the purpose of the centre divide in the lower part of the number "5"? The number "5" does not contain an enclosed shape that would fall out if not divided such as in an "8" or a "6", "9" and "0".

The attached is how I would expect basic stencilled numerals to be cut (leaving aside font styles) ie. only the uppercase "P" and the numeral "0" are sectioned for stencilling as one would expect as they contain enclosed shapes. Therefore if my observation is correct then the number patch is probably not a genuine stencil cut but just a font made to imitate stencilling.

I would not invest in this particular jacket for that reason alone.

There is a dealer whose sales pitch often includes " donated by survivor(s)" with lots of Auschwitz museum database derived info which is woven into the sales narrative. He often has various armbands, Jewish stars etc. all donated to him by survivors. A glaring example of a "put together" offering from this selker was an "OST" patch for a forced worker together with the Arbeitskarte document for the former forced worker...on sale for several hundred dollars. However the document was issued to a Pole who would NEVER have worn an "OST" patch he would have worn the letter "P" that Polish forced workers were required to wear.

**Gernika81** · 05-26-2013, 07:22 PM

Hi. first off all thanks for your your comments. I know this area of collecting is quite controversial, not only due to subject itself but also for the loads of fakes that exist. All those jackets come from a well reputed holocaust and kl stuff collector in USA, who has the biggest collection in America and probably on earth. That's why I trusted him since the very first moment. If all these turn out to be fakes it would be a complete disaster for me. I spent thousands of $ on them and I would like to make sure 100% before I move on. It's obvious that in some cases it is very difficult to prove the originality. There are some details which make me doubt, but what if they are original jackets? Not all but at least 2? If I ask for a refund I would like to make sure. We are taking about a lot of money indeed. Would you ask for a refund immediately without any doubt? I have also been to some camps and seen original uniforms. What can I do? I am really worried...

**StefanM** · 05-26-2013, 07:32 PM

Why is the red winkel with the letter "P" machine stitched and not the number patch also? Was there a shelf stocked with "political" badged uniforms and another shelf for asocials, another shelf for homosexuals etc each with the relevant coloured winkels prestitched? Another question mark in my mind.

I would seek a refund.

Would also be thrilled to see some of the fruits of you seven year KL collection posted in the thread if you are willing to share them here

**StefanM** · 05-26-2013, 07:46 PM

by Gernika81

Hi. first off all thanks for your your comments. I know this area of collecting is quite controversial, not only due to subject itself but also for the loads of fakes that exist. All those jackets come from a well reputed holocaust and kl stuff collector in USA, who has the biggest collection in America and probably on earth. That's why I trusted him since the very first moment. If all these turn out to be fakes it would be a complete disaster for me. I spent thousands of $ on them and I would like to make sure 100% before I move on. It's obvious that in some cases it is very difficult to prove the originality. There are some details which make me doubt, but what if they are original jackets? Not all but at least 2? If I ask for a refund I would like to make sure. We are taking about a lot of money indeed. Would you ask for a refund immediately without any doubt? I have also been to some camps and seen original uniforms. What can I do? I am really worried...

I am terribly sorry to hear that you are into these for thousands of $. What gaurantee of authenticty did the seller give you? And does he have a refund policy?

If there is anyway that you could take the jackets etc to one of the established Holocaust museums such as USHMM who have the experience and expertise to establish the authenticity or not of your purchases that would be the best possible avenue in trying to get your investment back.

Like those who have also commented I think you have been mis-sold these items.

**Gernika81** · 05-26-2013, 09:49 PM

Hi. Yes, it was very expensive. I paid a lot of money as I was told and guaranteed their originality. So you tell me that I should contact USHMM to get their expert opinion on them? I don't live in USA so I think I must try sending them photos. Do you know if they are available for something like this? i am really concerned to be honest. I have these for 3 years now and I want to make sure that what I have is 100% original or that it has a big chance to be original. If I must ask for a refund I need to have an important ground to tell the seller indeed. As for my collection, I must take photos, but I have almost 14 pairs of different camp inmate shoes, some of them named. So the only items I have about which I am not sure are these clothing items. So is it possible to get in touch with USHMM or Auschwitz museum maybe?

**CARL** · 05-26-2013, 09:56 PM

by Gernika81

Hi. Yes, it was very expensive. I paid a lot of money as I was told and guaranteed their originality. So you tell me that I should contact USHMM to get their expert opinion on them? I don't live in USA so I think I must try sending them photos. Do you know if they are available for something like this? i am really concerned to be honest. I have these for 3 years now and I want to make sure that what I have is 100% original or that it has a big chance to be original. If I must ask for a refund I need to have an important ground to tell the seller indeed. As for my collection, I must take photos, but I have almost 14 pairs of different camp inmate shoes, some of them named. So the only items I have about which I am not sure are these clothing items. So is it possible to get in touch with USHMM or Auschwitz museum maybe?

Museums will likely only offer an opinion on the strength of images sent. For an accurate appraisal, a hands on inspection would be required. I would be very interested to see any armbands that you may have in your collection, especially if they are from the same source, as these are among the more commonly copied/fantasy produced KL related material.

**Gernika81** · 05-26-2013, 11:11 PM

Yes, I know that. But I will try to get an opinion on them from museum. If I need to send them to the museum so that they can check them in hand, will do. It is a lot of money and I want to make sure. By the way, all these don't come from the infamous jewishmemory.info site. I never buy from that shop. I don't have armbands indeed. Those are amongst the most faked items.