Allgemeine SS em cap opinions

**BenVK** · 07-06-2010, 11:53 PM

Well, if someone says fake but does not give the reasons why, how do you combat that? It's impossible and kills the learning process dead in it's tracks.

**Espenlaub Militaria** · 07-06-2010 11:53 PM

We also buy and trade your items and full collections!

**ian** · 07-06-2010, 11:58 PM

the original first post pics tell the story
the pics of different caps later also tell a story
the cap is to new no age at all it rings so many alarm bells

**blackheart0866** · 07-06-2010, 11:59 PM

Age is not always a good sign, as look at the cap that was recently sold by Robert, at Roberts Collectibles, that cap was new, never been worn, for all we know there could plenty more caps out there, that people put away at the end of the war, People that were die hard , and loved what they did for Germany, and i don't see them just throwing away their cap, and uniform.

There has been cases, where people have stated they were members of the SS, that put up their SS uniforms and caps, And treated them as treasures, the same we do now.

Look how many SS tunics that are out there in mint condition, no reason for that one to not be in mint condition also.

Look at the caps, and tunics that F-B posted for us all to view, all beautiful, and some look in mint, almost new condition, because someone took great care of them.

Brian

**wolfslair** · 07-07-2010, 07:53 AM

Hello all, thanks kindly to all those who have had an input.
I bought this cap as an "investment grade" cap. It was sold as a mint issue item exept internal sweatband issues. My guess is that
it was never issued / worn, that the internal damage has been done by the curious looking for RZM tag etc
When you have handled more than a few caps you recognise the quality and craftsmanship that went into making these. There is no doubt about it being a genuine article. Regarding the internal issues,
there are two other known examples of Schlientz manufactured black visor caps and those others have had the sweatbands replaced pre 1945. I still think that it's an interesting piece and shows that there are genuine articles still out there that are not strictly textbook. I'm comfortable in it being 100%

Thank you all for your valuable input. Wolfslair

**d'alquen** · 07-07-2010, 01:22 PM

Actually, I think there is considerable doubt that this is an original article. If I were doing an appraisal on this hat the negatives I would highlight would be:
The leather chin strap has an internal stamp similar to the peak. That is the incorrect RZM stamping for a strap.
As Ben pointed out the diamond is the wrong shape for the manufacturer.
The RZM tag, in my opinion, is not an original.
One of these factors alone would have me questioning the cap. All three make me feel very uneasy.
d'alquen

**Friedrich-Berthold** · 07-07-2010, 05:27 PM

Derek is surely correct about the RZM tag, but I think it unwise to state in public what the flaws are, since such Korrektur will have fatal consequences. The reference works (Saris) also include the proper markings of chin straps, as are also included in the reprints of the relevant RZM regulations. But I am increasingly convinced that our tutorials for the fakers are a double edged sword, since the new species of well made fake has surely resulted in part from our misguided labor.

I do not know the answer for this problem, nor do I want to seem like a jealous creep who withholds information or knowledge, but the issue troubles me greatly.

Even the many Kammerexemplare of these caps, or those which were issued and scarcely worn because the black order of dress was seldom used after the outbreak of war, nonetheless show under close inspection signs of age. These are not always visible to the naked eye, but result from storage, collector ravages, and simple environmental consequences of seven decades.

I am sorry to express similar doubts to those above, but in the last year or so there has been a parade of what I deem to be very well rendered fake caps of this Typus.

I do not recall seeing this species of thing say in the years prior to about 2005?

Much of this is akin to the ballyhooed canals on Mars or dreams of such that have resulted from pictures from afar without the actual examination of the thing at close range. That is, the novice collector is made easy prey by our tutorials for the rapacious fakers who reverse engineer items from the images we post. Or the fakers have glommed onto actual pieces, or whatever. In any case, the fakes are now much better, and I am sure we have helped to cause this state of affairs while also arousing the interest of other beginning collectors with these websites. All signifies a sad commentary on the ills of the 21st century.

Or I am in error and this is an authentic cap with a bum RZM tag, but I do not think so....

**DrCMH** · 07-07-2010, 07:31 PM

This hobby definitely instills angst in the novice collector such as myself. If the advanced collector can fall victim to these new class of counterfeit items then those of us who are just beginning to venture into the field are surely destined for heartbreak.

My recent purchase also shares some of the aforementioned warnings but I trust in the knowledge of those who have been at this far longer than I have. With all the references and advice of those veteran collectors it seems now that you may need to proceed with a (educated) leap of faith.

I guess ultimately you pays your money and you takes your chances.

**Friedrich-Berthold** · 07-07-2010, 08:08 PM

by DrCMH

This hobby definitely instills angst in the novice collector such as myself. If the advanced collector can fall victim to these new class of counterfeit items then those of us who are just beginning to venture into the field are surely destined for heartbreak.

My recent purchase also shares some of the aforementioned warnings but I trust in the knowledge of those who have been at this far longer than I have. With all the references and advice of those veteran collectors it seems now that you may need to proceed with a (educated) leap of faith.

I guess ultimately you pays your money and you takes your chances.

I do not want to add to your paranoia and fear in an age suffocated with same. However, these computer images and the Schiffer books have improved the fakes, full stop. I have mixed feelings about all of this, since I have unwittingly contributed to the problem with good intentions, that is, the road to hell is paved therewith.

Of course, when I first bought one of these ca. 1970, the fakes were pretty awful and there were next to no pictures of authentic pieces to be had very easily. The way ahead was steep, but less conflicted than today. There are so many mirages, chimeras, phantoms, and shadows in all of this.

Nor is there some disinterested official authority for all of this, either, since much of what some of us do is voluntary, anonymous and far from perfect considering the large sums of money involved. It is not as if in this little space you see the credentials and diplomas of the physician there on the wall for all to see, though one's bona fides emerge in the course of the careful reading on posts. Derek's bona fides are in all the noted reference works (cf. the pictures of real caps) as well as his documentary archive of remarkable value and his many, many posts.

We also want this site to remain free of cyber bullies, which became the norm on the lord of the flies site, where the game has been to build one's self up while knocking everyone else down in a very Hobbesian cosmos. We also want people to feel the freedom to share their material, without the barrage of sadness as a result. Wolfslair is a fine member here and has added to the value of this site. Mr. Tricot also made an unpleasant discovery recently, too.
The cyber culture of the lynch mob is a repugnant thing.