Early wedding photo

[Friedrich-Berthold]

Danke vielmals.

[cochise]

Thanks for that, and that superb link. It would make sense then that at the time he was serving with the SS-Motorstandarte 3 in Berlin.

Unfortunately he doesn't appear on BB-WAs SS-Motorstandarten personnel list from 1934 DAL... but if such detailed info can be gained for 1934 I should be able to get more info the time that photo was taken [I think it was 1936].

[HPL2008]

Thanks for that, and that superb link. It would make sense then that at the time he was serving with the SS-Motorstandarte 3 in Berlin.

Unfortunately he doesn't appear on BB-WAs SS-Motorstandarten personnel list from 1934 DAL... but if such detailed info can be gained for 1934 I should be able to get more info the time that photo was taken [I think it was 1936].

Sorry to disappoint you, but I have to point out that the SS-Dienstalterslisten only contain officer ranks, i.e. Untersturmführer (= equivalent to a 2nd Lieutenant) or higher. Your grandfather, however, is an Unterscharführer in his wedding photo; this is an NCO rank (= equivalent to a Corporal). Thus, he would not have appeared in any of the DALs issued up to that time.

By the way, 1936 is a perfectly plausible time for the photograph: Looking closely at his cap, we can tell that it bears a second pattern Death's Head as introduced in 1934, while the cap eagle is still of the first pattern, which was replaced by the second pattern in 1936.
(Of course, that does not mean that every last SS man immediately applied such changes at once. Still, as I said, it helps to support the ca. 1936 dating.)

[cochise]

Yes, thanks again, but him being an Unterscharführer in 36 wouldn't necessarily preclude him from later entries given as I suspect he was promoted, afteral, one had to start somewhere and there were no officer academies like Sandhurst or WestPoint in operation for the SS: by 45 he was, or rather we were informed, he was an Obersturmbannführer. The lists do appear very comprehensive and it would be interesting to view the later ones.

It's a positive lead by any means.

[Paul D]

Cochise what an interesting thread many thanks for posting !

[d'alquen]

The cuffband is a rarely seen motorstaffel title from the 1934 period, (this would fit with the pre-October 1934 white piping on the collar patch). These cufftitles replaced the earlier spoked wheel cuffband.
At this time M3 was the motorised branch of foot regiment 31, 'Niederbayern' under 'Sued', and drew its personnel from the Regensburg and Straubing area. The Berlin location of 3. SS Motor Standarte under 'Ost' did not come into play until 1935.

Just as a side note, the second pattern death's head badge was introduced in 1933.
d'alquen

[Friedrich-Berthold]

The Allgemeine SS was constantly being reorganized as it grew, and the insignia especially of these motorized units is pretty baffling. No where in the secondary works does this early insignia appear, does it? This thread illustrates the potential of this website in contrast to the "scull" and "it is fake...?": high jinx. Danke vielmals.

[Friedrich-Berthold]

[QUOTE=cochise;213768]Yes, thanks again, but him being an Unterscharführer in 36 wouldn't necessarily preclude him from later entries given as I suspect he was promoted, afteral, one had to start somewhere and there were no officer academies like Sandhurst or WestPoint in operation for the SS: by 45 he was, or rather we were informed, he was an Obersturmbannführer. The lists do appear very comprehensive and it would be interesting to view the later ones.


The SS had a leadership education system of some sophistication, in fact, i.e. the Junkerschulen and by no means was promotion from the Unterfuehrer ranks to the Fuehrer ranks a rare thing. Rather, it manifested the elite, Nazi ethos of the schwarzes Korps. To be sure, there were those who never made the grade, but there were many who did all the same. The key to all of this are the SS personnel files in the Bundesarchiv in Berlin Lichterfelde, where the answers to all your queries reside.

Moreover, there was also a leadership school for the Allgemeine SS at Dachau, was there not? The training and education base in the SS reached fairly enormous proportions as time passed.

The SS Dienstalterliste of 1944 for the rank of Obersturmbannfuehrer and above has been reprinted, I think.

[Doktor No]

THe picture of the Braunschweig NCO reminds me of something a Veteran once said to me, "at the time it was somewhat fashionable to wear a smaller Hat than fit your head", now I notice it every time I see it.

[sitges1990]

Intriguing family history and photo cochise, thanks for sharing. Like F.B. stated, the intricacies of relationships during this time are sometimes difficult to unravel. Well worth an examination. Reminiscent of families choosing sides during the American Civil War. Thanks for the details as usual H.P.

Jay