fake SS pin

[Tricot]

Bill, great to have you here!

I am fast learning if you want to learn the material you need to talk to the collectors who pioneered the field.

I hope I am not off topic, but as you are a uniform collector, when in your estimation did high quality faked uniforms begin to appear? I have heard the early 80's as the advent of high end faking.

Obviously these days there is incredible money at stake, for new collectors we simply can not afford much of a learning curve. Tuition has gotten very, very high.

Re: "Fake SS Pin". I collected German Military Artifacts in the 1960s, 70 & 80s. I acquired my collection by writing to the German vets/vets families. I have run across a badge of this type on three occasions. In all three examples they were much better quality than the one displayed. The first was on the SS Evening Dress uniform of Reichsaussenminister (& SS Gruppenfuhrer, at the time) Joachim von Ribbentrop I acquired from Col. Howard Goldsmith along with other uniforms, medals, etc. in about 1966. It has holes for both of the eyes but no piercing for the nose. I am unaware as to how it was attached as I was a firm believer in neither removing original insignia or replacing it. As I said I was, and continue to be a "pure" historian and believe in leaving things the way I got them rather than creating what I believe they were. History to me was and continues to be the primary goal. This is not a criticism of other collectors. I understand I am in the minority for not choosing to alter items as I receive them especially with "high end" GMF, Generals, Admirals, etc. where the owner's name adds significant value to each and every component of the item itself. The desire to refurbish an item as long as it original and based on photographic evidence or obvious common sense is perfectly acceptable where name attribution is not involved. Back to SS Evening Dress uniform accoutrements, I recently viewed an SS Obergruppenfuhrer's Evening Dress tunic attributed to eventual SS Obergruppenfuhrer Werner Lorenz (head of VOMI). My Ribbentrop uniform badge had red cloth between the badge and the holes for the eyes. The Lorenz tunic does not, but I believe originally they all had the red cloth underlay showing through the pierced eyeholes. The example I viewed at a Gun Show in Royal Oak, Michigan, again in the 1960s had two screwposts/round nuts, one at each end of the banner. I believe this was standard fitment as the badge was secured very closely to the uniform breast and a pin attachment would not have presented this high quality appearance. I doubt prongs would have been used as this uniform was made from the finest materials and am sure they must have been two eyelets sewn in to the coat for the screwpost/nut attachment. Thanks for the opportunity to share information from one of the greatest looking uniforms I encountered during my collecting years and good luck with your endeavors. Please understand they are my feelings and don't take offense if my collecting criteria differs from yours. As I said before I am a perfectionist. It is a great hobby with great historical significance. Thank you.

[Friedrich-Berthold]

Of course I have an original. I have nothing to be jealous over and I would not think I am greedy. I just have no need to assist the fakers in illustrating things they do not yet know. I am sorry that you are upset because I have been a very successful collector. I was wondering if anyone still collected original SS items, from the trash I have seen posted.

I have tried to help by posting originals, but apparantly those posts go unheeded.

Ado, perhaps you should petetion the administration to become Moderator. Your vast knowledge should be shared.

Bob Hritz

I appreciate your posts, colleague Hritz, and regard your success as a collector as being necessary to others. Why this object causes such ill feeling is beyond me, because even when authentic, it is exceptionally ugly and peculiar looking, in my own opinion. I realize there is much fuss made about the latter style SS mess dress, and it was costly in its day, but it is not as attractive as, say, that of the Luftwaffe. But suum cuique as in all things. Each collector has his own taste, and mine diverges from that of others, especially in the mania associated with "dead head" badges of all kinds. The other collectors here have their tastes and preferences, which are equally worthy of respect.

In any case, we do want this site to remain a place of good order that is the basis of knowledge. The collecting world is hardly an equal and balanced place, and Mr. Hritz has been pretty generous with this time and treasure here and at other places. I agree with him that we have no obligation to aid the fakers, since we already have done so with our posts of real things. Further, may I suggest that resentment of people who have been collecting for a long time does no honor to anyone, and merely reflects the iconoclast Zeitgeist as well as normal conflicts between generations. The maroon asocial website makes much of this smashing of images and the conjuring of a brave new world through the destruction of the old. While there are many old fools, to be sure, there are also many young ones, as well. Mr. Hritz has a leading collection, is analytical, and generous with us. Consider the alternative.

I will say, as one who has collected since the early 1960s, that the old fakes were not very well made and the local fakers in my voisinage (known to Mr. Hritz) made these mess dress badges even then. The piece at the start of the thread looks like one of them, actually. They made a whole line of SS insignia. The quality of fake black uniforms improved in the 1980s, for instance; the same is also true of caps, but others will dissent.

When one looks in the RZM Herstellungvorschriften and the Handbuch d. RZM the variations in this material become more plausible.

[Bill McClure]

Pieter,
How does one reach the site you mention?
Thanks,
Bill McClure