sorry for my english
sorry for my english
No, actually, I did not say that: It was not first worn after the order of 5 May 1934, but well before that. The order of 5 May 1934 as posted by Friedrich-Berthold (which was the basis for the publication in the RZM's Mitteilungsblatt cited by me) only confirmed that this already-existing cuff title was continued to be worn.by Jux
The cuff title was introduced at some point in 1933, probably in September. (I have no exact date.)
We have seen that 5 May 1934 is not the birthdate of this cuff title. As for the date of its "death": Old insignia don't so much die as fade away, as their replacement by new patterns is always a transitional process. Photographs of Hitler's 1934 inspection of the Leibstandarte's Lichterfelde barracks show both the Gothic and Sütterlin styles simultaneously in wear. Thus, we know for sure that the Sütterlin model was already in use by then. Who knows when the Gothic pattern was finally worn out by its very last wearer?
Mollo gives its introduction date as 25 May 1936.
Yes. But they were worn on different sleeves anyway.
As for the simultaneous wearing of more than one cuff title on the left sleeve, this is another story altogether. For quite a long time, there were numerous cases when two or sometimes even three cuff titles appeared together on the left sleeve (and quite officially so), but the wearing of more than one cuff title in this fashion was eventually abolished in August 1943. This, however, is another story altogether and did not affect the wearing of the Stoßtrupp cuff title.
Allow me a general word of advice on the matter of exact dates: Of course this is of a certain interest. However, in the interest of sanity, one should really not get too obsessed with this. Official introduction dates did not necessarily - or even usually - match the dates when the respective badges and insignia actually started to be worn. Items may have made their actual appearance before being officially regulated or may have become available only quite a long time after their official introduction. Likewise, if badges or insignia were discontinued, this was always done with a wear-out period (of sometimes substantial length), and even after such periods had officially expired, unofficial wear still continued in many cases.
".......
Allow me a general word of advice on the matter of exact dates: Of course this is of a certain interest. However, in the interest of sanity, one should really not get too obsessed with this. Official introduction dates did not necessarily - or even usually - match the dates when the respective badges and insignia actually started to be worn. Items may have made their actual appearance before being officially regulated or may have become available only quite a long time after their official introduction. Likewise, if badges or insignia were discontinued, this was always done with a wear-out period (of sometimes substantial length), and even after such periods had officially expired, unofficial wear still continued in many cases. ..."
Bravo, Andreas, a statement of real historical insight. We have examined the evidence of this generalization many times over.
Mr. Jux also owes a major debt to Andreas, who is a wonderful teacher and far more gifted of forbearance than am I.
...as do we all......
Read and weep.....
One other fact: in the epoch 1933 1934, the custom existed for SS units to contract directly with local vendors for requirements. This practice included the use of blank cuff titles and collar patches, which were then embroidered also locally. These practices were to be abolished in the course of 1934 with the standardization of the uniform via the RFSS, the VA SS and the RZM.
We have included the evidence on these practices, and whether they applied to the nascent LAH I surely cannot answer, but they did apply to the SS as a whole.
The collector dogma assumes a standardization and homogenization of this regalia based on a.) a caricature of German bureaucracy more or less based on little historical evidence and b.) the self reflexive hide bound thinking of collectors who want a series of short, choppy rules to eradicate the natural chaos inherent in this regalia.
If there is one insight I have derived from work here in this space with the newly available sources it is thus: SS insignia ca 1932-1939 was far more chaotic a field than I ever knew, not the least because the "aw sh!t" orders ex post facto to the troops scolding one and all for non compliance display the fact that the contemporaries were pretty confused by it all.
That is to say, there is no silver bullet or Rosetta Stone to eradicate the contradictions, the exceptions and the unknown unknowns (Kahn) from all of this.
Last edited by Friedrich-Berthold; 12-23-2014 at 08:25 PM.
Thank you all for all this knowledge Misters the Teachers
Ah yep sorry i thought the 5 May 1934 order was the order to wear this gothic cuff title. You said maybe September 1934 ? I've got the SS-Sonderkommando Berlin and the Adolf Hitler Standarte for September 1934. Seems legit no ?
Yep if someone here know the date of appearance of the Sutterlin Adolf Hitler cuff title i will really appreciate
Yeah you're right i will kill myself with the quest of exact dates haha
Thank you for the infos about the Stosstrupp commemorative cuff title. With your informations now i can buy one for my collection showcase (a replica yes unfortunately).
Friedrich-Berthold i can't read german so i'm unable to understand the images you posted :/
To thank you all here is a photo of my SS collection showcase (i've got original Werhmacht pieces on other floors but i think you easly understand why i don't have original Waffen SS pieces I M NOT RICH lol)
enlighted as you are you don't need of descriptions
Have a nice day
I didn't. Please re-read what I wrote.
You are, of course, free to collect replica items if it pleases you.
Still, allow me to remark that the "Handschar" cuff title is not even a replica, but a pure fantasy item as it never existed in the era.
Also, the cap appears to be simply a re-badged East German army cap; not a very good representation of an SS cap at all. There are far better copies out there.
Very interesting and informative discussion gentlemen , many thanks for the contributions of the usual " suspects " !!
Just as a point is there any photographic evidence of the Gothic cuff title being worn much later in the 30's or even during the war ? As Andreas has said the early Gothic cuff title will have phased out over a period of time when the Sutterlin was introduced but the early members of the may have continued to wear it as an indication of their " old sweat " status in the LAH !!
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