SS LAH Panzer Wrapper

[stonemint]

It is tragic. I corresponded with the (now deceased) owner of the collection. He educated me on wraps, and I on visors. He was always willing to share, and was never afraid to post his opinions, and as a result, he had a lot of detractors. He firmly believed everything he had was the real deal. I feel terrible for his family, first with regard to his passing, then having his collection dragged thru the proverbial mud.

[M18922]

Patrick i wouldn't bother letting it spoil your enjoyment of the the red forum , i have seen some of your posts on there putting into practice what you have learnt here has put you far ahead of some of the members there ( although i don't wish to compare forums by these comments ) and this type of thing is a fairly common occurence there , but i fear this wasn't a fight for you as many of the agendas involved probably go back ,many many years !!

cheers

Paul

You may be right, but I think I will use the knowledge I have learned from this forum, on this forum. The members on the red site dont like what I said about them on how I thought it was disgusting how they were insulting Richard P and Bruce Hermann. Perhaps I shouldent have posted I dont know.

Cheers, Patrick

[BenVK]

You really don't want to get caught up in WAF threads like that one Pat. It's the very ugly side of the hobby.

[Dimas]

Actually I do not like the wrappers with 2 inside pockets, and the heeres type jackets hidden loops for the 2 buttons , which is mostly wool made loops. Also I do not like heeres type 4 stitchings for the belt hooks, when normal SS jackets have only 2 of them.

[N.C. Wyeth]

I agree with Ben's advice . . .it is better to avoid getting caught up in such situations.

I really didn't want to post on that topic . . . but something about the situation, not mentioned here, troubled me all the more - why is it that only certain members can get away with calling things such as this out-on-the-carpet, and then not offering an explanation for their accusations . . . and for the most part, any other member would get a reprimand for doing the very same thing? I can't tell you how many times I've seen the "friendly reminder" [from some of the very same people coming out on that topic] about backing-up your accusations with proof . . . but in this instance, all that was required was a petty "be careful" accusation. The only substance offered in explanation appeared to be a simple, "it's obvious junk" . . . well . . . even if it is "obvious junk" . . . how is it that YOU are not obligated to explain why, and anyone else would be? That double-standard troubles me . . . and I had to question the acceptability of the action. Of course, once I realized the question was going to be rapidly overlooked, I just decided it wasn't worth asking any more . . . I felt it better just to convey my disappointment through summation of the popular attitude via clandestinely feigned agreement. I realized long ago, there is going to be a double-standard out there . . . and just like Ben says, sometimes your better off not getting caught up in any of it . . .

My question:
Maybe to dispell all of the controversy, and since it is in the spirit [and maybe even the rules?] of the Forum, maybe **** could take the time to tell all of us why he believes some of these items are not so legitimate, and with a little more focus than a simple "be careful" opinion?

And my cede:
Thanks . . . understand completely - if the situation dictates certain items "speak for themselves", such a warning to the membership could be considered reasonably acceptable . . . A warning free of substance seemed odd at first, and for a moment, had me questioning the purpose of this post . . . as long as the explanation for the warning is obvious enough, I'm with you . . .

[Trelawney]

I'm new here and haven't been collecting for too long, this is the kind of thing that puts me off. I would like to learn more as to why items are iffy so I know what to look for, rather than just the opinion that somethibg isnt "right".

[AmericanKraut]

I agree too many people call things out without explination, which is the purpose I use these forums (to learn why things are authentic or not) Out of curiosity I read the "other" thread and rergret doing so since I feel that it has only made me less educated on the subject.
It is a shame that people rather argue than aquire more knowledge, thus is why I spend my time here on this knowledgable forum.

[Bochmann]

This is a very sad episode indeed.
I did not know Richard P and therefore did not comment on the previous post re his demise.
However, from his few posts here and from the high regard that he was held by those individuals who did know him, I think that it is a shame that his collection is now being questioned, when the original owner is no longer here to defend it.
Personally, I can see the possibility of an ulterior motive to all this.

[hawkins]

I agree with all of the above , The same thing happened to me here on this site with a ss tunic .. but thanks to Bob and some others stepping in it got sorted , i agree with n.c wyeth

all ways the same two mods over there pulling the same crap ..running there mouths but never helping or saying what is wrong , but i must say calling the iteams out if fake is the right thing but in this case as with many others they put items down yet will show no proof just all expletives and secret squirrel crap



I feel this fourm site is the last standing point , as there is a helmet forum that pulls the same crap

[BenVK]

He [Richard] was not controversial figure in a negative way, he was well informed and a very nice guy but had his own opinions of what was original that differed at times from others. He was assertive about his views and would stand his ground which I respected even when I did not think he was correct.

I've copied this comment made by Johnny on the WAF because it mirrors my own view.

The problem is/was that not everyone respected Richard's views when they disagreed with them. In fact, the complete opposite was true. Certain people that pull the strings on WAF constantly tried to shut him up and get rid of him. That was/is the WAF agenda and the root of all the bad feelings. The amount of personal abuse Richard suffered over the years was staggering really but he rarely, if ever, took the bait and retaliated with insults himself. In his emails to me, he would often mention with a wink and a smiley that he would never let the bastards grind him down. I respected that enormously.

Richard was an educator. Pick any thread you like in which he participated and I think that comes over loud and clear. He was generous, humorous and engaging with his knowledge.
However, whether of not all of his imparted knowledge was totaly accurate is open to debate IMO. I don't know enough about wraps and tunics etc to fully answer that question but it has to be taken into account that a lot of collectors in this arena (regardless of how they went about it) did not always agree with him. Something I'm very much more familiar with is period sewing and cloth garment construction techniques etc and I recal reading his detailed analysis of some Pz wraps, being very impressed by his knowledge and could find no fault with his observations.

Richard never asked for my opinion of any of the hats in his collection and apart from seeing one or two of the Panzer General fieldcaps in small photos many years ago, I've never seen them in detail before now and was unaware of the others that appeared for sale. I was actualy very surprised when I viewed the recent images because there is cause for concern regarding everyone one of them IMO and they are not the calibre of hats I expected to see in his collection. But who is to say which this or that Pz General hat is authentic or not? I doubt that even 1% of the entire collecting community has ever handled a real one. I know I haven't. It's also highly unlikely that a complete consensus of collector opinion could ever be achieved about something as rare as Pz Generals cap even if the General himself was still alive and posted it for opinion!
Who can also say how Richard felt about them either? For all we know, he might have been all to aware of the potential concerns but kept them anyway. If you later discover that the rare item you bought isn't what you think it is but it's too late to return it, what do you do with it? burn it or keep it has a display piece? To my knowledge, Richard never tried to sell these hats as genuine in his lifetime so we will never know if he really was convinced they were the real deal.
Lets say that if I had died 6 months ago, the SS NCO feldmuetze "crusher" I owned would no doubt have ended up being sold as unquestionably original because I had not voiced my doubts about it in public yet. Not one single person on the WAF threads has even considered this point so far.

The most shameful part of it all though is that the same group of WAF members who taunted Richard in life couldn't wait to declare all these Pz items as, and I quote "crap". There was no attempt to hide their pleasure in doing so either. If all of it truly is fake or part fake then Richard was duped by someone long ago and he and his family deserve sympathy, decorum and understanding. None of which was portrayed by the people running WAF behind the scenes.