SS Standarte ?

[d'alquen]

The SS did indeed wear a collar patch bearing both the number of the regiment and the company but photos show that this was for a very short-lived period around 1931/32. The patches had white piping for men and black and white/silver piping for SS-Sturmfuehrer. This was at the very first stage of the SS uniform regulations regarding insignia and as the SS was under the SA from an administrative point of view this would probably account for the SA style patches. The tunic shown and its insignia would not appear to be from this period. If it was, one would expect to see an Old Fighters chevron.
HPL2008's point above about unit designation is completely valid, the unit numbers on this patch don't appear to make any sense.
d'Alquen

[Friedrich-Berthold]

Thanks for the further data.

[Friedrich-Berthold]

Wim Saris has included such early SA/SS regulations in his posts on another site.

[jHAM]

I seem to remember a photo showing the profile of an SS and SA man with similiar (although not the same) early unit designation from the early 1931-1932 period. However he was wearing the traditonal brown shirt uniform with kepi and the numbers on the insignia were actually metal numbers. As always thanks to Mr. d'alquen Mr. Saris, HPL2008 and F-B for sharing their hard earned knowledge and experience.

[Wilhelm Saris]

1) Earlier posts suggest the rare collar-patch to be SA, but XIII/21 was not an official combination for the SA.
There are many possibilities, but the mentioned one, is not one of them. There were not that many Sturmbann-staffs.
I checked various uniform-regulations that explain the system!
Just quick (without checking) SA fashion normally is stitched patches (manufacturing regulations RZM from 1936). NSKK had
merely metal numbers positioned (Verordnungsblatt der Korpsführung - NSKK), issue 1 from January 15, 1936. Number 6,
page 5: changing for the collar patches).

2) Further Standarte 21 in the SA was not a Standarte that had to wear black collar-patches. This number for foot-SA
existed in: Franken (sulfur yellow); Schlesien (sulfur-yellow); Pommern (apple-green); Ostland (dark wine-red); Donau
(red-brown) and Warthe (cornflower-blue). This number did not exist in the SA-groups of Niederrhein or Berlin-Brandenburg
that indeed did wear the black color!

3) Generally the SS had the number 21 upon the right collar patch for the Standarte. The Sturm-number was to be found upon the black cuffband, which
had a Sturmbann-piping (green for I; blue for II; red for III; bright-blue for IV; white for V and black for VI). SS-Befehl number 22 (which must be from late 1931)
gives an intricate explanation about the use of numbers to be worn with collar-patches. In this order the number then still was the number for the brigade (and not the
Standarte) to be worn upon the right collar-patches. The system for the cuffbands with numbers was here also explained and upgraded with a letter from Himmer from
March 12, 1933 (F.St/ V.A. Tgb.Nr. 35 201). In this letter the new intricate system of cuffbands was fully explained.

4) An SS price-list from December 1934 Included in the Mitteilungsblatt der Reichszeugmeisterei from December 22, 1934 mentions: green for Sturmbann I;
dark-blue for Sturmbann II; red for Sturmbann III; dark-red for Sturmbann IV; yellow for mounted SS; brown for signals and black for pioneers.
Further: green (1-4); dark-blue (5-8); red (9-12); dark-red (13-16); yellow (1-9 and so on); brown (1-9 and so on); black (1-9 and so on). The other cuffbands
mentioned do have colored pipings and honor-names (article-numbers 126 through 184. Note how much different cuffbands there are!!). Note the differences
as mention between 1931/1933 and 1934......The price-list does NOT include collar-patches with the combination XIII/21. It is either Roman or Latin. The article-
numbers 361 through 475 mention the various collar-patches for the SS, which were then available!!

5) A price-list for SS material from mid-1936, published by the RZM does neither give the combination. The article-numbers 877 through 1170b were for cuffbands;
article-numbers 1201 through 1317 were for collar-patches.

I can't find a number combination officially as XIII/21. Maybe mr. d'alquen has, but as he says it does not make any sense?



Above images are from one of the many booklets about ranking and uniform-systems:
Abzeichen und Dienstgrade der NSDAP und ihrer Untergliederungen nach parteiamtlichen Angaben,
(so, according official orders). Later the piping colors white and black were added for V and VI.

[jHAM]

Thank you Mr. Saris for the excellent post and confirmation that the kragenspiegel in question is not SA in origin. I truly feel lucky to participate in the conversation with such qualified and esteemed people. My thanks to all.

[Friedrich-Berthold]

I add my thanks to Mr. Saris for his encyclopaedic and definitive answer. Bravo. A rare privilege to have such an informed and generous post of signal merit.

[another ant]

Late in time, but I hope that this contribution will help in some way to those who are really interested in this.
(more clear and big by clicking on the photos)







thanks to the owners of the examples shown for their invaluable contribution.