Theodor Eicke gut ????, am definitivsten ja !!!!

[Friedrich-Berthold]

I also wonder what happened to the proud father, too?

[Doktor No]

I would never ask a question to which I did not already know the answer! Joking aside, it's a fascinating subject. History, with no brilliant and evil despots would be a complete bore. It would be as boring as the word "langweilig". Probably like watching Vincent Gallo in "Buffalo 66". Others can study Mr. Wilson's Points.........

[Friedrich-Berthold]

That's quite a gallery of types you have. We are all interested in the tyrants, despots and others, to be sure. I study them and Wilson's Fourteen Points. In fact, Eicke would not have existed as you well know without Wilson's Fourteen Points. History is bunk, of course. That is my I am an historian.

[HPL2008]

Although I am neither a historian, nor a psychologist or sociologist, but simply an interested layman, allow me to throw in my two non-academical cents on Theodor Eicke:

Eicke, while he had few friends outside the SSTV/SSTK circles, was indeed held in high regard by his men, which certainly had to do with his unconditional willingness of sharing all hardships with them, his habit of leading from the front, his way of placing comradeship above rank and social class etc.

Superficially, these might seem like positive and even admirable character traits, but in fact they were really just logical consequences of his die-hard, fanatical belief in Nazi ideology with its emphasis on perpetual struggle, bravery, a classless society where ethnicity counts more than social standing etc.

I could go on, but I think you know what I mean:

The apparently "positive" qualities of Eicke where just the logical consequences of his belief in National Socialist ideology, a belief which also caused him to hate Jews and Communists, show no mercy to camp inmates, place little value on the life of individual soldiers and all his other unpleasant characteristics and acts.

My point is: His "positive" and "negative" traits cannot be separated or set off against each other; they were simply two sides of the same coin, outgrowths of the same ideology. Knowing what that ideology stood for, his "positive" traits lose all meaning.

Or, to use a big-picture analogy: Yes, Hitler built the Autobahnen and combated unemployment, but so what?

[David North]

I think that it is sometimes suggested that for sex - the anticipation for some is often more pleasurable than the actual event. I hasten to add that this suggestion is not based on my own personal experience.

Enough of that and for myself, the eagerly anticipated "The SS - A New History" by Adrian Weale (ISBN-1-4087-0304-5).

I cannot remember the last time that I have put down a book unfinished and furthermore, when having no intention whatsoever of attempting to finish it.

The point being is that for someone who is looking for a year 2010 and peculiarly "subjectively alternative" view of the SS in toto and to include all aspects of Eicke and his chums, then this book is the one for you.

Regards,

David

[Eddie]

In addition to a love of Germany and German, I share only a birthday with this man. (October 17th) I love this thread and all of the twists and turns that it has taken over the last 6 pages, thanks for a fantastic read fellas.

[Paul D]

Wonderful discussion guys , it's what makes this forum what it is !!

[Friedrich-Berthold]

Although I am neither a historian, nor a psychologist or sociologist, but simply an interested layman, allow me to throw in my two non-academical cents on Theodor Eicke:

Eicke, while he had few friends outside the SSTV/SSTK circles, was indeed held in high regard by his men, which certainly had to do with his unconditional willingness of sharing all hardships with them, his habit of leading from the front, his way of placing comradeship above rank and social class etc.

Superficially, these might seem like positive and even admirable character traits, but in fact they were really just logical consequences of his die-hard, fanatical belief in Nazi ideology with its emphasis on perpetual struggle, bravery, a classless society where ethnicity counts more than social standing etc.

I could go on, but I think you know what I mean:

The apparently "positive" qualities of Eicke where just the logical consequences of his belief in National Socialist ideology, a belief which also caused him to hate Jews and Communists, show no mercy to camp inmates, place little value on the life of individual soldiers and all his other unpleasant characteristics and acts.

My point is: His "positive" and "negative" traits cannot be separated or set off against each other; they were simply two sides of the same coin, outgrowths of the same ideology. Knowing what that ideology stood for, his "positive" traits lose all meaning.

Or, to use a big-picture analogy: Yes, Hitler built the Autobahnen and combated unemployment, but so what?

Very well said, indeed. The type of the Truppenfuehrer as Feldherr Psychologos was much discussed in the Weimar Republic as concerns a charismatic style of leadership on the storm troop model versus the old hierarchical command and control and status of leadership from the time of the Frederick William I and linear tactics and the Exezierplatz of fabled lore. Eicke fit into the former, which was also part of the cult of Horst Wessel and what not. I have known a lot of Germans who were exceptional soldiers in the second world war on a personal basis and beyond who always told me that where ever the Waffen SS was, there was always trouble in terms of command and discipline. I also knew a prominent figure connected with the 20th of July 1944 whose life was nonetheless saved by a noted Waffen SS officer, as well. But we are concerned here with the biographies of individuals.

My German colleague has made some valuable points about the transfer of national socialist ideology into deeds and into institutions. Eicke's battle field deeds on the eastern front are quite secondary to his reorganization and stewardship in the SS establishment of the concentration camp system. The latter is why he is remembered. And, one should also recall that in the process of combat transition of the Waffen SS into divisional and corps and above echelons of command, the methods of command and control and Truppenfuehrung and operations of the German army and air force (i.e. regular general staff officers, 1a's etc.) were crucial.

[Friedrich-Berthold]

I think that it is sometimes suggested that for sex - the anticipation for some is often more pleasurable than the actual event. I hasten to add that this suggestion is not based on my own personal experience.

Enough of that and for myself, the eagerly anticipated "The SS - A New History" by Adrian Weale (ISBN-1-4087-0304-5).

I cannot remember the last time that I have put down a book unfinished and furthermore, when having no intention whatsoever of attempting to finish it.

The point being is that for someone who is looking for a year 2010 and peculiarly "subjectively alternative" view of the SS in toto and to include all aspects of Eicke and his chums, then this book is the one for you.

Regards,

David

Has this book been published in the UK yet? The British fascination with the SS is a topic in and of itself.

Once more and at the risk of being a total bore, I have been reading books about the SS since the 1960s, and the Rohrkamp book is the very best on the structural, ideological and comparative issues associated with the legends of Eicke's career and that of many others. I believe a scholarly biography of him is in the works in Germany. Until such a thing is translated into English is another issue entirely, of course. And for some here, the word 'scholarly' is a source of horror, but not for all of you, for which I am grateful and appreciative.

Thanks to my German and British colleagues for their fine interventions. The study of the past is hardly a unitary, simple thing, especially when it comes to war and the people who are made by war.

[Friedrich-Berthold]

Since these images irritate Ben VK, then I must post it along with an image of Eicke.

Peter Jenkins has had a lot of photo albums of SSTV troops with candid photos of this man, which Dr. No should publish or someone should publish, since they would sell quite well.

The same nation created both these figures, somehow, and one of Eicke's most ill famed locales was also in Thueringen where arose garden gnomes in the first place.