Waffen - SS Legion Volontarie WALLONIE Armband

[StefanM]

Its all about the research first which gives answers to hard questions

Spot on!

[Jerry B]

Some interesting points raised, the examination of the history of the font could be useful for this type of item, but the known history of the unit seems to be more conclusive in this case as does the known history of this type of item and the common occurrence of fantasy fakes of them.

I did not bother posting when this was first posted for two reasons, firstly a combination of the latter two points I mentioned above and I would therefore have posted with a 99% certainty that it was a fantasy item produced in the 70's, which would have it seems just attracted negative comments from those not familiar with such items and would have course not have added anything to the debate and I admit would not have been of any use to those who have not been collecting for very long and who have not encountered or studied this type of object before.

But the other reason I did not bother to comment was to do with the quality of the image posted as IMO how anyone can expect to get good opinions posted when the image they post is itself not any good, as it is impossible to comment on the construction, the weave or the printing that comprise the object and does not IMO allow for anything meaningful to be posted, though the mention of the font used is not something I would have consciously examined, merely mentally or actually compared it to known period examples to see if it matched similar fonts used on period originals.

If you want good detailed answers, then you have to post good detailed images IMHO.

[Jerry B]

Just adding this thread link to the dagger section which from a quick glance seems to consist of endless posts of iffy daggers and other items without any discussion of why they are bad, though I am sure to the experienced collector of such items the reasons are obvious, but surely adds nothing to enriching the knowledge of those who are not. I never really collected daggers but I have had a few over the years and many of these are one looker garbage even to me, but what about those who are new collectors? Does this thread help them understand why they are bad and allow them to learn from it and be able to pass their own judgement on items that they might be interested in buying, especially if they don't have access to the thread at a antiques shop or fair. Surly explaining why these are bad would be more useful and would allow them to be able to discern good from bad based on a sound knowledge and understanding of such items.

Or was that not the point of the criticism raised at some members in this thread.

https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/dagge...er-art-257460/

[Larry C]

First I will tear out a page from Friedrich Bertolds book and say that as he does with photos they speak more in volumes,,than words can express...after that the thread is open to questions...which none have yet questioned. The bread is there for the taker!!
Maybe I am misunderstanding something as I will repeat myself one last time..that I am not targeting anyone in this thread...but coincidence seems to be drawing me to the thought of why the thread I started on the dagger forum has any play here at all..or is it the only thread throughout the forum website that does not express enough in words,,as what images seem to express more? I think not.
Can just words prove something is authentic,,without photos?....we have heard that a million times and the end result were photos support the story. The issue is,,no one is asking questions..on the reason why..this armband is bad...OR this Repro dagger. Common sense would say "well this item looks ok,,but everyone else says its bad,,I will ask the question why is it bad"? ..............but for some reason those who dont know are afraid and intimidated by the knowledgeable...and wont ask a question but wait for others to answer it for them. Depending where on the forum a person is...that answer just doesnt come at all.....but the bread is still there for the taking......Ask the question!!.....No one person on this website will string a person up by the B*lls and annihilate them...the worst that can be said is your wrong,,but lets talk about and find out why that person is not sure of it ..OR also question the knowledgeable without a brick over their head and ask them why they think its wrong! I could not possibly by a car or a house and just guess my way through it!
I agree totally in your post#22 ..Jerry,, and mention I made back on post#7 that better images were needed....that would answer the "why is it bad". I hope Alech will come up with a few more images if possible where he located this armband..for the sake of the thread.

[Larry C]

For the sake of clarification I added an adendum at the end of my first post..on the Best of the worst thread in the dagger forum...but I would encourage all to ask questions throughout the WRF,,,as we are all students and teachers together in this hobby. Best regards Larry

[Jerry B]

I think we can all agree that for good opinions good pictures are needed, and in this case Alex's were not, though when an item is in a display case or framed that is not possible, but that then leaves any of the forum members in a difficult position as there is not enough to offer an informed opinion and it only leaves the members with the option of posting opinions on what they can see. As the picture was not very good the only opinions that can be offered are those based on experience of similar items and whilst in theory there might have been an original armband of this type produced, it is unlikely based on my experience of such items, however the likelihood of it being a fake is more probable and until evidence to the contrary can be produced it will be considered a fantasy item IMHO.

There was no intention to have a go at anyone and the repro dagger thread was just the easiest to find that appeared to suit the purpose as an example that it was not only in this case that items are posted as bad without any attending discussion as to why they were bad.

If period photographs or other period references can be found for an armband of this type being issued that would be great but they would still not be enough to authenticate the armband until good quality detail pictures of the item in question can be posted and there can be little in the way of discussion of it and its merits or otherwise.

Maybe it would have been better if other than asking for better pictures, nothing else was posted in this case and then maybe the members would stop posting crappy pictures and expecting quality opinions.

[jHAM]

This thread is a good example of why I usually dont give my opinion on items that are posted on these forums. If you think the examination of period photos and the lack of photographic evidence of a certain item is not a valuable tool in the determination of an items authenticity then I am sorry. I will not give my opinion in the future. What a mess.

[Jerry B]

This thread is a good example of why I usually dont give my opinion on items that are posted on these forums. If you think the examination of period photos and the lack of photographic evidence of a certain item is not a valuable tool in the determination of an items authenticity then I am sorry. I will not give my opinion in the future. What a mess.

I did not notice where it was stated that period photo's were of no use and the lack of period photo's was not a factor in determining an items authenticity.

It was stated that without good photo's of the item under discussion it does not matter if such items were period made, as no one would deny an Iron cross was made or worn during WWII, but not many would venture to offer an opinion of whether one was real or not from crappy pictures that do not show sufficient details to pass an opinion.

In the case of this armband, if period pictures were found to show that they were period made, that would still not allow an opinion to be passed on the thread starter as the posted picture does not show sufficient details to be seen to see if it matched period armbands of a similar type or even of the same type.

[StefanM]

I think the font used for "Waffen" is Impact Condensed. A bold condensed font designed by Geoffrey Lee, first issued in 1965 by Stephenson Blake.



A higher resolution image would of course help in examining the font(s) in detail.

One of the other font attributes often overlooked by those producing fantasy or modern replicas is "kerning" that is the letter spacing the font designer builds into the font character set. Todays digital cuts allow for much tighter "kerning" or letter spacing than with hot metal characters where each character sits on a fixed body width determined by the font designer, meaning there was a minimum letter space achievable and characters could only be spaced out and not kerned tighter as digital fonts allow.

IMO this modern kerning can be seen on the armband where the "a" sits tightly and significantly "under" the right of the "W" character in "Waffen".

As HPL rightly pointed out this can often only rule out if the fonts are non-period, although there are differences in font metrics, for example, the Times font designed by Stanley Morison in 1931 and the phototypeset versions of Times used in the 1960s and the digital versions used today...but these differences are very subtle.

[Wagriff]

So then...the writing on the armband is in a combination of Two different fonts (Impact Condensed and Futura demi-condensed) -both being Post War? Would this not be a fairly definitive conclusion for it's age then?