Article about: Ok topic of discussion....posted below are 2 random photos I pulled off of the internet. Except for the grip both of these daggers are identical in all ways. Questions to be asked: 1. What w
Fred, since I've not made up my mind yet as to the validity of the proported "1st model Banschutz" daggers, could you try and explain why all of the so called 2nd models have black grips, and not colored handles?
My own curiosity already satisfied long ago, I’ve written more detailed comments about period plastics for postings and one or two collector publications some time back. But that would take some searching, and they may or may not be in machine readable form so let me give you the short version. The white German Army dagger grips made using “Trolon” from Dynamit Nobel AG had an inherent problem which was sensitivity to especially ultraviolet light. Cast in rod form using one time only multicore lead molds, if they were not cured properly they had to be discarded. If the individual one batch at a time mixture was slightly off, it had to be discarded etc. etc. At the same time (in that specific time frame) it was the only reasonably practical solution to a mass produced thermosetting plastic that more or less resembled solid Ivory.
Dynamit Nobel AG was not the only company that made that type of plastic, and early on becoming aware of the inherent problems there was specific testing and experimentation trying to find optimal formulations. But at the end of the day (also postwar) a switch was made to other thermosetting plastics for white (disregarding here for brevity the wood core, milk based resin types). Which was too little and too late, because the military buildup was steadily expropriating the necessary chemicals for its own uses (Dynamit Nobel AG itself was a major supplier to the Wehrmacht). That said, the darker colors like black did not have the same problems and could also be manufactured using different more efficient processes. It's also interesting I think - that 1938 is the year that various items for the German Army/Wehrmacht were switched over to more efficient mass production using black plastic for grips, and other things. Who knows, for a time maybe some limited amounts of excess black plastics production somehow found its way over to the civilian sector/market in Solingen?
Picture time: The once ubiquitous, but gradually disappearing painted black grips, the paint on this example looks like its probably falling off at this late date from just normal handling. Color changes with both freshly broken and more aged multi-shaded pieces of a white colored grip. Fred
JR, Where did I say that in response to your original question? The image I posted on the on left hand side is a painted Klass Army dagger grip, and what I said was: “............. the darker colors like black did not have the same problems and could also be manufactured using different more efficient processes. It's also interesting I think - that 1938 is the year that various items for the German Army/Wehrmacht were switched over to more efficient mass production using black plastic for grips, and other things. Who knows, for a time maybe some limited amounts of excess black plastics production somehow found its way over to the civilian sector/market in Solingen?” So are you actually serious and you really did not understand the above statement, or just having some fun to see how I might respond? Fred
by JRMeda
So are you saying all of the grips on the 2nd Model Banschutz daggers were painted white as well?
Fred, I'm ignorant on the subject, so please bare with me. In just a few words, do I understand that you are of the opinion, that all Banschutz daggers came with a black grip from the factory. But that all Army daggers found with black grips, (purported to be 1st model RR daggers) had white painted handles at one time?
Fred, Were the grips issued black on the 2nd model Banschutz daggers ?
by JRMeda
Fred, I'm ignorant on the subject, so please bare with me. In just a few words, do I understand that you are of the opinion, that all Banschutz daggers came with a black grip from the factory. But that all Army daggers found with black grips, (purported to be 1st model RR daggers) had white painted handles at one time?
JR, I don’t usually do “In just a few words,” as it’s not my style if I don’t think that it does the subject matter justice: To the best of my knowledge all of the circa 1938 and later Bahnschutz-Dolch (that some call a 2nd model) had black grips from the factory. Also being of the opinion that too many of the surviving white painted/finish gripped German Army daggers (even if it’s just a trace) show that it’s not an accident that they were originally painted white. With a number of the all black grips that have been examined also showing signs of paint being removed. With no known period evidence to the contrary that German Army Officers (or senior grade NCO’s) ever wore anything other than white gripped daggers in printed matter like catalogs or regulations. Or that any German Army type daggers (like the Luftwaffe "Funeral Daggers") having black grips have ever been seen in period photos. That’s what I think. So please permit me to ask a question of my own: Besides the previous testimony you cited from TMJ’s book. Do you have any kind of other (preferably period) evidence that you can present to add to the discussion?
by Larry C
Left turn Gents ...so Dynamit Nobel AG was only a plastic coating contractor....and not a producer of trolon grips?
I want for the readers here to understand the difference above in grip producers and coaters..if this is the case. Regards Larry
Larry, The (thermosetting) cast phenolic resin rods (ie: Trolon) were a solid white plastic. As manufactured by Dynamit Nobel AG Troisdorf, Germany they were just one of its TR period plastics (with if my memory serves me correctly IG Farbenindustrie AG upstream from Dynamit Nobel having DN as its customer for some things as it was for other companies). Dynamit Nobel having a fairly wide range of plastics in its lineup which may have included coatings. But with my immediate recollection being that if they were there, they were most likely for military use, or without first checking they may have been from other companies that specialized in them.
With the way that the Trolon types were made being a syrup like combination of chemicals that were cast by pouring into lead molds in the shape of cylindrical rods. That were for a one time use only - and then cured for a relatively long period (I may have some photos). Then after curing, broken up to remove the plastic rods with the lead being recycled, and the hardened rods then machined to the desired configuration and polished. With the last step something that could have been done ‘in-house’ by a dagger maker, or farmed out to anyone who had the proper equipment and workers. Best Regards, Fred
Fred, On the Armies distributed by Klaas, why were the black handles and tangs longer than those seen by nearly 40 other edged weapon firms, that made these daggers as well?
Fred, On the Armies distributed by Klaas, why were the black handles and tangs longer than those seen by nearly 40 other edged weapon firms, that made these daggers as well?
JR, Just so that I understand this clearly - you are saying that the longer tangs and handles are only found on the Klaas Army type daggers that are all black with no signs of white paint anywhere? Fred
Fred, See Mario's post on page 2 of this topic. He shows the longer blade tang, and longer black grip associated with his example of a Klaas edged weapon. How can this be accounted for, when 40 other manufactures all produced standard lengths components?
by JRMeda
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...so Dynamit Nobel AG was only a plastic coating contractor....and not a producer of trolon grips? 
- Larry C
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