Generals Heer dagger???

**Nikolaus** · 10-10-2012, 09:30 AM

Hello Members,

became these Heer Dagger with golden hangers. Its not a Zinker, its non-ferrous.
I thinks its gilded but not sure. Have anyone experience with these hangers?
thanks
Nikolaus

**Espenlaub Militaria** · 10-10-2012 09:30 AM

We also buy and trade your items and full collections!

**wolfeknives** · 10-10-2012, 12:57 PM

That is a beautiful dagger, one I have not been able to find for my collection yet. Judging from the photos, the hangers are a very early brass based set, with the silver plating worn off revealing the brass underneath.
Wolfgang

**Andrew** · 10-10-2012, 03:17 PM

i have had a few hangers with the gold wash on the fittings. my understanding is they were for "general staff" and i'm still not 100% sure what that means exactly, other than it did not mean only Generals. if any one knows for sure, please chime in. here is an example i have of a gold wash on a 2nd luft hanger. the wash is worn off of one of the buckles.
Andrew

**gerrit** · 10-10-2012, 04:14 PM

Beautiful early SMF with slant grip

**Frogprince** · 10-10-2012, 08:29 PM

This has been discussed before elsewhere, but unfortunately I don't have time at the moment to find the threads or search for some photos that I have that illustrate the matter.

Gold is gold, and is ordinarily impervious to the elements, although if it's a very thin plating it can be breached and cause the metal underneath to corrode, which can then cause it to peel off.

When they switched to zinc fittings, and a zinc/zinc phosphate over the steel scabbards, some makers used a gold or golden colored zinc chromate pretreatment to combat a particular type of corrosion. With the downside being that after time and exposure to the atmosphere/elements, the zinc phosphate lost its adhesion to the zinc chromate exposing a gold coloration. Which when the zinc chromate lost its adhesion, it left a gray or silver/gray (zinc) substrate. FP

**Larry C** · 10-11-2012, 12:34 AM

I am going out on a limb with this reply,, but also with General hangers I believe some of the fabric might of been gold woven,, but I could be wrong as I dont have access to any of my references at the moment. Regards Larry

**Andrew** · 10-11-2012, 02:28 AM

i have to dissagree that the gold, is the zinc cromate primer. there are many very nice examples of the gold wash hanger fittings.
Andrew

**Frogprince** · 10-11-2012, 07:01 AM

by Andrew

i have to dissagree that the gold, is the zinc cromate primer. there are many very nice examples of the gold wash hanger fittings.
Andrew

Andrew, Gold is gold, and it normally does not tarnish or dull even centuries later. Which is not something that can be said for (yellow) zinc chromate, although it can retain its golden color for a reasonably long time in a protected environment. And I'm more than happy to look in close detail at any items that are presented for discussion. With to help speed the process - here are a couple of links to some earlier discussions (with both Army and Luftwaffe examples) .

PS: When gold plating is applied to a base metal such as zinc, it's customary to apply copper plating to provide a much less expensive base layer for the gold to adhere to, and to some extent try and compensate for the gray/silver coloration of the base metal (and to minimize costs). Best Regards, Fred

General Army Dagger - GermanDaggers.com

Gold Heer Dagger - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums

**wolfeknives** · 10-11-2012, 09:41 AM

by Frogprince

Andrew, Gold is gold, and it normally does not tarnish or dull even centuries later. Which is not something that can be said for (yellow) zinc chromate, although it can retain its golden color for a reasonably long time in a protected environment. And I'm more than happy to look in close detail at any items that are presented for discussion. With to help speed the process - here are a couple of links to some earlier discussions (with both Army and Luftwaffe examples) .

PS: When gold plating is applied to a base metal such as zinc, it's customary to apply copper plating to provide a much less expensive base layer for the gold to adhere to, and to some extent try and compensate for the gray/silver coloration of the base metal (and to minimize costs). Best Regards, Fred

General Army Dagger - GermanDaggers.com

Gold Heer Dagger - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums

Fred, though I partially agree with your theory, I can not completely agree with you. Having been exposed to some research as well as practical applications of zinc chromate, I see some flaws in your theory. Still, I don't feel that I have sufficient background for any meaningful discussion.

However, none of this applies to the hangers at the beginning of the thread, it is of very early production. Much of the silver plating remains in the protected areas. The brass, only used in early hangers, is showing through in the areas prone to wear.

Wolfgang

**Andrew** · 10-11-2012, 05:54 PM

as to the zinc cromate i can only say that having been a sign maker for many years, and having worked with a lot of aluminum that i used zinc cromate on as a primer. while the zinc cromate has a yellowish gold color in the can, once you mix in the catalist and spray it on it takes on a more light green color. i have never seen old worn signs with the primer showing this kind of gold color. and i think when you see stone mint hangers with the gold wash fittings, its very hard to be convinced that its gold because the finish is worn off. especially when i have seen many that have the gold only remaining in the low un worn areas of the fittings. and every dealer and collector must be wrong, that understand these to be a gold wash. not as good as a gold plating. i think gold's color also depends on its mix. just look at the multy colors of black hills gold. i read the link provided and it seemed only one person had the cromate opinion, and no one else agreed. i think it will remain the same.
andrew