Questions for Danny and Ger on their new army book.

[gerrit]

Tomaz here are the answers to your questions.
Its not that i dont want to answer any questions about our book, but you questioning facts that are well known in the army daggers collectors world.
Wittmann did that some 25 years ago.
The fact that you even questioning a dagger of Jon Degens is remarkable, you might visit his website wardaggers.com - German WWII Dagger and Collectable Edged Weapon Site, perhaps it would clear things up a bit.
Its not exactly a big secret that the generic B, the Herder and the Wingen 2 are look a likes, it is a common thought under army dagger collectors that the Generic B has his ancestor in the Herder, just like the Generic A looks a lot like the WKC 4.
Well you have the book and the usb card, so why not study the big pictures? the answers are there.
The nose or beak are all different of the 3 guards you mentioned, lets take a closer look at the Herder, B & Wingen 2.
Then..If you look closely at the Höller 2 with its typical eye and tool marks on the head and its material you will find out why there is a 4.
because the 4 Always comes with a late generic scabbard with later type scabbardbands it has to be placed after the 3.
The terminology that we use has a reason too, for example the WKC 1 has a different shape as the WKC 1A, but besides the head its the same.
In the army collectors world there are certain terminologies that are well known, why should we break up with that.
Tom Kendall for example has made a study on early crossguards, he has a very nice website, i suggest you do some knowledge shopping there to.
I have made a few screenies so you might see the difference in the guards a bit better.
Please study these screenies
Regards
Ger

[FALLSCHIRMJAGER]

Sorry for "chipping in",I know zilch about daggers, but I have found the informative reply's by Danny and Gerrit very interesting. There is clearly a huge amount of study and years of experience on show in this book, well done gent's, a real labour of love. Leon.

[Larry C]

Thankyou Gerrit..it doesnt get any more crystal clear than that. Which for those "advanced collectors" will fully understand this terminology and logic.

And I did contribute to Danny and Gers book.

Since I already had a " Song and Dance " ....I turn the dance floor over to Tomaz .......step up and sing how you contributed to this reference......if you did contribute..and supposedly as knowledgeable you are... or put yourself out there to be...then you would of fully known way before you decided to find fault..with dealers and authors. Your history follows you ..and is well known on various other forums.

The thread could have been useful but now it is pointless carrying it on.

This thread is still open to ..BUT
Avoid Forum Suicide and choose your words carefully only directing them to the content ( Minus fault finding ) of understanding these intricacies that Gerrit has pointed out in detail..... Snide remarks towards the Administration will not be tolerated.

Have you considered becoming a Gold Member and contribute $25 ? Some tinnies are more expensive than that

The door is still open...you can walk through it both ways..the choice is yours.

Larry

[Tomaz]

Thanks Ger, that's all I needed, just to clarify a few queries. I am still puzzled about the Paul Weyersbergs though but we can just leave that.
Larry I never claimed to be knowledgeable on army daggers, that's why I asked these questions and was the reason of this thread. The point of discussion forums is exactly that, to discuss with others to understand and learn about these daggers or whatever else you are into, there is no reason to jump to the defence of your friends just because someone else has a different opinion to them. They are grown men and if they want to respond to queries or not then it is up to them.
I really don't care what is known about me on this or other forums, at least I put myself forward and ask these questions while others seem to be too worried about who they upset. The best way to learn is to ask questions and then you can either agree or disagree with other points of view, but there is no reason to take offence.

Dagger number 95, the Anton Wingen which is one of the rarest daggers in the book belongs to me and my collecting partner Russell. If Ger or Danny are willing I would like to know how you have attributed this guard to Wingen as it is known by Jon Degens as unattributed and can be seen on early producers like Tiger, Klaas, Weyersberg etc as well as Wingen. It is obvious from the wing feathering that it is a pack, which I am in agreement with Degens.

[gerrit]

Tomaz so far we have seen this particular guard only on Wingen daggers with a slant grip.
Because of the early slant grip we placed him before the Wingen of Scott which we call an A.Wingen Type 1B, and called it the A.Wingen 1A.
We use the A & B version as the second Wingen is commonly known in the collectors world as Wingen 2 (the Gen. B look a like)
As you can see the brest, legs and beak are different from the Pack, its looks like a Pack 1 on steriods, so although the feathers may look like the Pack its for sure a different castmal ( picture on the leftside the Wingen, on the rightside the Pack)
That perhaps Pack provided the castmal to Wingen is always a possibility, but no proof have been found yet.

If this guard would have been extensively used by other makers like Pack, Tiger and Weyersberg then we would have crossed some in all these years of collecting, but we didnt.
Klaas is something else, that firm bought guards where he could find them when he was short on guards, so that one will not be taken into count, Klaas could have bought them from Wingen.
In this case if we had found this guard on at least 4 different makers then we would have introduced it as an early generic 3, so far we only succeeded in finding them on Wingen daggers.
So based on these facts and our own observations we decided to contribute it to Wingen.
We know that there will be others outthere and they will be sooner or later posted on forums, until new facts popup we contribute it to Wingen, time will tell Tomaz.

Best regards
Ger

[T Kendall]

Tomaz so far we have seen this particular guard only on Wingen daggers with a slant grip.
Because of the early slant grip we placed him before the Wingen of Scott which we call an A.Wingen Type 1B, and called it the A.Wingen 1A.
We use the A & B version as the second Wingen is commonly known in the collectors world as Wingen 2 (the Gen. B look a like)
As you can see the brest, legs and beak are different from the Pack, its looks like a Pack 1 on steriods, so although the feathers may look like the Pack its for sure a different castmal ( picture on the leftside the Wingen, on the rightside the Pack)
That perhaps Pack provided the castmal to Wingen is always a possibility, but no proof have been found yet.

If this guard would have been extensively used by other makers like Pack, Tiger and Weyersberg then we would have crossed some in all these years of collecting, but we didnt.
Klaas is something else, that firm bought guards where he could find them when he was short on guards, so that one will not be taken into count, Klaas could have bought them from Wingen.
In this case if we had found this guard on at least 4 different makers then we would have introduced it as an early generic 3, so far we only succeeded in finding them on Wingen daggers.
So based on these facts and our own observations we decided to contribute it to Wingen.
We know that there will be others outthere and they will be sooner or later posted on forums, until new facts popup we contribute it to Wingen, time will tell Tomaz.

Best regards
Ger

I am looking forward to receiving my book ! Concerning this crossguard I have it typed as an (early generic) EG Type-3 on my website and have for quite a long time. I own it on Wingen and a Tiger and have seen it on a early double oval WMW. This guard is extremely rare IMO. Its very interesting the correlation between these early generic guards and the makers that used them who also used generic guards later in the period.

[Tomaz]

Thanks Ger, Danny and Tom for the polite and constructive replies to my questions, much appreciated.

[heers68]

Great discussions gents, this is how we beat the truth out of the weeds! Kevin.

[Tomaz]

this is how we beat the truth out of the weeds! Kevin.

Kevin can you clarify what is meant by that statement.
Tomaz.

[Rossi]

Kevin can you clarify what is meant by that statement.
Tomaz.

Take the high road on each other guys. We are a band of collecting brethern...right? I don't think Kevin is trying to say anything negative. I would say to us all "IRON SHARPENS IRON" is the best way for us all to become sharper.