DAF Plaque

[StuG III]

I was told today by a friend, whose knowledge I truly respect, that these DAF shields like the one I posted were actually made in the 70's and are not T.R period pieces at all. Any comments?

Tom

[Pierre N]

I think not!
If you saw how the base is made
it was not modern.
it is possible, they copied the wheel,
but I doubt it
those I see in the picture are like the one I had.
For me 100% original

[StuG III]

You misunderstand me Pierre. I'm not talking about the one in your post, I talking about the one that started this thread.
The one you showed is a genuine piece.:-)

Tom

[Pierre N]

your example , look good to me !
I'm not in my hand your wheel, but what I see looks good to me!
I think not they have copied this wheel (this model)
i find a example with the screw

Attachment 360012
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Attachment 360014

[Pierre N]

I can be misspoken
English is not my language .
I know you not judge my wheel but your
I have never seen a copy of this wheel.
that's why I was told about the base of the wheel, it can not be of modern copy
yours wheel included

[Jo Rivett]

your example , look good to me !
I'm not in my hand your wheel, but what I see looks good to me!
I think not they have copied this wheel (this model)
i find a example with the screw

Yes indeed, that is a fake that was manipulated either by Wittman, or someone else that had him fooled.
These are Fantasy items that were produced en mass in the late 1960s, pictured and sold for 7 USD through WW2Ltd, as well as later House of Swords, Hollywood Inc. etc etc. Use your god given logic, What is it for? you dont know, nobody knows but it is real nonetheless? come on guys?
The scan is from the 1973 catalog from WW2 Ltd., and shows you.
Hollow, no holes to attach it, and definitely not a flag pole top.
Even back then they did not know what it was for, but sold them by the box load.
I should not need to argue with you on this, your god given reasoning should tell you its a fake.

Do you know of other Flag pole tops or wall plaques that have no mountings, fittings, and are available every day of the week? do you? and when you find these, sold by every dealer every day, it seems ok to you, and when you see them pictured in a FAKERS catalog its also OK ? what will your reasoning be for this? 99-1 in favor of it being a fantasy item and all you, or anyone will have in its favor is that you like it, and its real? Even though you cannt explain any of the BIG warning signs? just because it has come to be accepted as good, from people on forums? really?

Forget the one you pictured from Wittmann, you only have to view the latest thread on him at the HJ forum to see him caught out again trying to change history.

Hi everyone, (Ade too, and a belated Happy Birthday) sure most of you know me :-) i just HAD to register, because Tom being the gentle guy that he is, is not going to tell you a few truths that common logic should already have told you.

And your last foothold for debate? why is the one pictured in the 1973 book a fake? well lets see, you could be right, just because the book is full of fantasy SS items, Fantasy armbands, fakre and fantasy medals, does not mean that this plaque is fake, or fantasy? does it?
Collectors need to wake up, and start using COMMON LOGIC before debating endlessly on stupid items that cant expalin themselves, that nobody knows what they were for, yet everyone believes is real just because its the "accepted way"

[Jo Rivett]

Maybe if you saw the full page from that catalog? whats this? oh the Fantasy Pink SS flag pennant that still catches people out today (even with original tag) and to be clear, 90-99% of everything this Faker sold, and pictured in the 100 page catalog is Fake, or Fantasy. (but oh no, not this wall plaque, after all, you just posted that you have never seen a fake)

I am aware that people, especially lifetime members do not like it when others, new guys, come onto a thread and show them why they are wrong, but i place much more importance on correctness, and on History, than i do in making friends or posting-to-please. I dont have 2 minutes for fakes, and dont have time at the moment to help out on Ades forum, if i did, i would only get you all in a mess anyway, and tell you things you dont want to hear! But you see, as much as you guys can buy the stories from the older sellers that these items are real, it would be a waste of my time to try and help out, because, as i am sure this thread will show, it will somehow get changed into a personal debate, with me ending up banned and you guys all ending up collecting the wall plaques by the box load, and forgetting anything logical. After all, how can one small collector like me be right, and 100 Famous dealers be wrong? How? just not possible

[Greenhorn]

Metallwarenfabrik

Most of us know dealers can be wrong and often are wrong. I know I'm wrong, as are lifetime members and even on occasion, Ade (sorry to speak for you, Ade). But before you finger my associates, remember, we are just mere mortals, as you are. Walk to the beat of your own drum, and learn your prey. Know what it is that you are buying before you buy......or be risky like some like to be. What you have shown is good but nothing new, just something some haven't seen before. I'd like to know what else can you offer us? We have seen magazines with fakes and fantasy items before.

I'm not trying to shoot an insult over your bow, but you have insulted a few thousand people. Nobody knows everything, not even lifetime members, or you. Feel free to "put us all in a mess" and post what we don't know. If we are wasting good money on bad militaria, I'm sure somone who would post 2 long replies would also post one more with all this new information we are missing. Most of us don't put all of our faith in "old timers" or "experts" or even military dealers, we research and learn. As I said before, the only person I believe to tell me the truth everytime is my mother, and she doesn't post on this forum.

Greenhorn

[Corey]

I Heard they were mounted on doors (Information from an army surplus near my house) But i dont know anything about these plaques

[Jo Rivett]

What you have shown is good but nothing new,

Hello Mark
Oh but it obviously is new. i have not heard, or read any retort yet, on any forum, to the tune of "Yes i think its original, but beware, it is pictured in the WW2Ltd 1973 Catalog that is filled to the brim with nothing but Fantasy and fake items, so warrants logical debate including period reference, and support using known original, and especially taking into account the way in which these items, i.e: door plaques and flag pole-tops were made, cast, fitted and are found today." All i have heard are one-liner thumbs-up and songs of praise on Dealers sites who are just so sure that it is real, yet dont know what it is for, or why it`s construction differs greatly to that of what is is claiming to be.

We have seen magazines with fakes and fantasy items before.

Then why has this item in particular, that is pictured above in a known Forgers catalog some 40 years ago, never been connected to these "magazines" that "we" have seen before? simply because most collectors do not own any Forgers catalogs, and are only interested in the opinions of others who also dont own, nor have ever seen, any catalogs such as this one. Or they have, but the thought that they may own a fake, and the thought that all the Dealers and collectors selling these today, dont know as much as they would like to think? maybe? Or they cant read?

Mark, let me ask you this:
If you owned an item like this, that neither yourself, nor any Dealer or collector was sure what it actually was, but yet was for sale every day of the week, and you had one of these magazines that "we" have seen before, and acknowledged that most of what was in this magazine was BS and post war fantasy rubbish, and you saw, to your horror, your very item, pictured amongst all those lovely Fantasy creations, would that not make you at least want to MENTION this fact to other collectors? or to yourself? and ask a few questions? The answer is of course yes, and at the same time supports my answer to the above question that most collectors have not seen these forgers catalogs, or have but refuse to believe that the item pictured in it, "could" indeed be the item in their very collection, the item that came from a Dealer with such a good reputation, the item that the best of the best have given thumbs-up on, the item that every Forum will give a glowing review of. If they had seen this, it would surely have been mentioned on a forum before today? and is it?

but you have insulted a few thousand people.

Mark, its probably much more than that by now. This is the problem when you try and show people who are not using common logic to question their items, and just assuming that everything with a swastika must be from the Third Reich period because that is the general consensus, accepted that way, so shut-up, go along and gut-ist!

I dont subscribe to the General Consensus Mark, and will always be able to back up what i claim, and what i suggest with enough period evidence that will leave no door ajar for any possible debate on why modern day opinion and hearsay could triumph over History and logic.

On Fora, you have to try and please the masses, otherwise you stick out like a sore thumb, and in no time will have any thread turned around on you, especially if that thread contains facts that collectors dont want to be confronted with. Many, as you put it, (associates) know each other and get along just fine. So its natural when a stranger comes along and says something that nobody wants to hear, dares to question what everyone else says is good, and what many have cash invested in. I am no stranger though, and would never just say something, without being absolutely sure of myself.
In the case of this "item", we need to consider the item first:
• Is it a flag pole top? No of course not, we know how they were constructed, and they were not made like this, cast hollow, in one form, with no fixtures or place for fixtures. This would mean, as we can see from Wittmans one, that the next step of adding the pole fixture, which would naturally have been done in the same workshop, would mean that Mr Pole-fixture-adder, would need to take the freshly cast item, and cut out a piece in order to attach, as we see from Wittmans one, a fixture that does not fit properly, has no hilt or "stopper" and a fixture than is not typical of period fixtures. Do we not also see that it is rusty, and oxidized yet the Wheel is mint? what does logic say to us? that they were married much later, and have not always been together.
•Is it a wall plaque? Without any fixtures, how was it supposed to be attached to the wall? Why would it be made like this? cast in one piece with no fixtures? to use as a Frisbee? Do we have any other Genuine Third Reich wall plaques that are construced in this way? a hollow cast item, thats use, and method of fixture was left up to choice and use? No we dont.

So what does common sense, or Logic tell us? That it is constructed in a way like no other genuine Third Reich Flag Pole-top or plaque. Maybe it is a Frisbee? But maybe it is also real, you know, like the other thousand "could be if we keep the faith and dream alive" items.

Sadly though, when we open said Forgers catalog, common sense shows us what it is.

BUT ITS REAL !!
Then you need to logically, and in keeping with known original items of this caliber (or what this is claiming to be) explain why it is constructed in the way it is, and you need to use more than just your opinion, or that of a Dealer, no matter how famous. You need to bring a convincing debate to the table on why we, (or me in this case) should consider these to be from the TR period, and you need to support this debate with something tangible that is convincing, and would support the notion that this item could be original. A picture of something similar on a wall is no evidence of this item, of course DAF cogwheels were made, and Pole-tops too, just not like this.

The next step
Will be hard one, but absolutely necessary if you are going to speak in this items favor, or debate in its favor. You will need, the exact same Fantasy (or fake) Cogwheel pictured in the 1973 catalog, you will need to prove that it is the one that WW2Ltd sold, and you will need to show why it is not the same as these ones, or all of these that are up for sale now. You will need to point out the differences, and support them with known Period DAF cogwheels and how they differ greatly.

I'm sure somone who would post 2 long replies would also post one more with all this new information we are missing

Its old Mark, and its called common logic correctly applied in favor of, and before, any item is deemed good on what people think, have seen, claim to know or claimed to have received from a vets hands. The Yellow part is good though :-)
If you meant new information in general, yes, once i have finished this book, the next one will Focus entirely on Fakes and Fantasy items that have come to be accepted as genuine.
Thats it though for now, i cant distract myslef any more, and certainly not with items like this.

As for "being wrong" and "making mistakes", yes we all do, and we all will continue to. The important part though is acknowledging that we will all be wrong at one or other time, and accepting that there are people out there, like my good self, and others, who really do, post with good intentions and not just a one liner to slam, or favor, any item. And when they say something, no matter how controversial or hard-line it may be, they might just be right! If we could only somehow take the "ego" part out of the hobby, and get back on track.