Reichsleiter Visor

**Friedrich-Berthold** · 08-02-2008, 09:44 PM

Here is the sort of mark I mean in an army Tellermuetze, though this is not the mark of C Wagner, plainly but a Swabian cap maker or maker of sweatbands. That chap in Italy has an index of known makers.

However, I have seen similar in other army Tellermuetzen or so called contract caps. Granted that Bob Coleman has more than the average of NSDAP PL caps, has he seen a stamp as I have just offered in party caps?

**Espenlaub Militaria** · 08-02-2008 09:44 PM

We also buy and trade your items and full collections!

**d'alquen** · 08-02-2008, 10:03 PM

FB,
Here is the an SS-VT field grey peaked cap with the Clemens Wagner stamp. It, like its army counterparts, has the maker in the cap band.
D.

**Friedrich-Berthold** · 08-02-2008, 10:09 PM

by d'alquen

FB,
Here is the an SS-VT field grey peaked cap with the Clemens Wagner stamp. It, like its army counterparts, has the maker in the cap band.
D.

Whoops. Thus I have misspoken. Mea culpa. This is why we need you on this website. I have a theory about this data. Since the party paid for the Allgemeine SS and hence the RZM, my thought goes that the black regalia generally has few or no trade marks. By contrast, the SSVT especially came to be borne by the national government, that is the state (not party...) and may have done its contracting differently, as visible here. Wagner made caps for the SS, as we all know. But have you seen a black cap marked as your nice SSVT peaked cap?

And did not this grey cap for enlisted ranks officially emerge in about 1939, if memory serves? I see this piece is 1938, so I stand corrected. So many details.

Also, one sees normal contractor marks in many SSVT grey side caps, does one not?

Thanks so much, indeed. I make no claim to ultimate knowledge. This site is proving its worth.

**BOB COLEMAN** · 08-02-2008, 11:09 PM

I have always been of the understanding that firm identification in any
R Z M cap was banned. It is possible to find private purchase Form III political leaders visor caps of private purchase with maker's logo on the sweatshield. In form IV political visor caps, I have encountered manufacturer's logos in the sweatshield but never on the sweatband with full manufacturer's name and address..

**Friedrich-Berthold** · 08-02-2008, 11:22 PM

by BOB COLEMAN

I have always been of the understanding that firm identification in any
R Z M cap was banned. It is possible to find private purchase Form III political leaders visor caps of private purchase with maker's logo on the sweatshield. In form IV political visor caps, I have encountered manufacturer's logos in the sweatshield but never on the sweatband with full manufacturer's name and address..

The ban on maker's logos came in March 1935. I believe this was at the same time that the RZM markings we know so well were introduced: M1, A1 etc. This being said, I am not sure this stricture was enforced 100% of the time in the years thereafter. Caps from before this date do have maker's logos and RZM tags. I have seen NSDAP PL, SA and SS caps thus. I think a distinction is to be made between caps made by contract for the RZM for the official procurement system of the party and its branches versus caps made on a bespoke basis by RZM licensed cap makers which Nazis bought like one would a piece of tailored clothing.

For what I say here I rely on two old works, lost in the fog of time: Davis, Handbook of RZM codes and Reid, German Belt Buckles. I suppose to look at them now amid the skyrocketing oil prices and shrinking pay check is to feel a nostalgia that must be quite odd to our young readers with low blood fats and ideal pulse rate.

Someone should make a CD Rom of the Mitteilungsblaetter of the RZM and I guess we would all be wiser for it.

For a while, the chap with the newer book on RZM markings in metal and who was on the daggers forum with some of you had posted the 1936 Herstellungsvorschriften, or a goodly chunk of them. It was a welcome reference.

Happy collecting. Thanks to colleagues d'Alquen and Coleman for the data.

**d'alquen** · 08-03-2008, 12:46 AM

FB,
Do you have the original order forbidding the use of logos and other forms of company identification in political items? I have something on this but for the life of me cannot track it down in the piles of paper that surround my desk.
I do remember that it said that the directive was based on Hitler's desire that no one should use the required items of the party to promote themselves personally.
Anyway, if you do have the citation I would be indebted to you for sharing it.
D.

**Friedrich-Berthold** · 08-03-2008, 12:54 AM

by d'alquen

FB,
Do you have the original order forbidding the use of logos and other forms of company identification in political items? I have something on this but for the life of me cannot track it down in the piles of paper that surround my desk.
I do remember that it said that the directive was based on Hitler's desire that no one should use the required items of the party to promote themselves personally.
Anyway, if you do have the citation I would be indebted to you for sharing it.
D.

Dear Colleague, I confess to being a bad historian and quoting from a secondary source, i.e. Thomas Reid, German Belt Buckles 1919-1945 (Houston, 1974) p. 10. '...it was illegal after 31.3. 1935 to place any company trademark on NSDAP items. Only the Erlaubnisschein number could be used."

Reid and Davis were among the first to write intelligently about all of this.

I also recall reading something to this effect in the Organisationsbuch d. NSDAP in an annex, but that may be a false, youthful memory.

If you have the RZM Mitteilungsblaetter from February or so 1935, might the thing not be there? Or the Reichsgesetzblatt, since it is more easily found?

I also recall that the 1936 RZM Herstellungsvorschriften direct that no logos are to be used. This statement appears there repeatedly.

Happy collecting.

**d'alquen** · 08-03-2008, 03:50 AM

FB,
You are correct about 1939 being given as the introduction date for the cap in most references.
In fact, as you can see form this shot of the other side, the maker of this cap presumably purchased 1938 cap band stock from Clemens Wagner and then subsequently stamped the sweatband with his own company id in 1939 when the cap was made. Come to think of it, this cap has more companies involved in it than any other hat I have owned.
D.

.

**Friedrich-Berthold** · 08-03-2008, 03:58 AM

by d'alquen

FB,
You are correct about 1939 being given as the introduction date for the cap in most references.
In fact, as you can see form this shot of the other side, the maker of this cap presumably purchased 1938 cap band stock from Clemens Wagner and then subsequently stamped the sweatband with his own company id in 1939 when the cap was made. Come to think of it, this cap has more companies involved in it than any other hat I have owned.
D.

.

Thanks for yours. Many details of great importance and value, surely.

We are grateful for your insight and learning.

Happy regalia.

**Horst** · 08-03-2008, 02:50 PM

Very interesting observations and material - I for one like my Reichsleiter Visor and I guess thats what counts. As noted in this thread there are visor makers who used/purchased the Clemens Wagner sweatband in their visors as is the case with this visor - we find alot of new material and note that all things were not the norm as we thought. Great topic and some great information surfacing -

Horst