Lets see your photos of Herm,Rath marked swords

[ncblksmth1]

Lets see the Herm, Rath marked swords. Anybody out there have one with the same markings in the same or similar location?


Hey arent these swords made out of high carbon steel? That would be hard to stamp after mfg without leaving some tell-tale indicators wouldn't it?

[Frogprince]

Hey arent these swords made out of high carbon steel? That would be hard to stamp after mfg without leaving some tell-tale indicators wouldn't it?

A metallurgical analysis a few years ago of multiple period Solingen made dagger blades demonstrated some interesting results. Only one of the blades barely made it into the low end of the high carbon range (and was still noticeably below period standards). With the rest effectively being more in the low to mid carbon range. Exhibiting considerable variation, also lacking sufficient amounts of the other metal alloys seen in U.S. practice that can help offset some of the hardenability issues.

Which, given the fact that these were only intended to be ceremonial weapons, should probably not be too surprising. FP

[ncblksmth1]

Someone said that these markings were put on after removing other marks that were under the langette. Wouldnt most folks just put the new marks where the old ones were just to make sure they were in the right spot?

[ncblksmth1]

SO No REPLIES or Photos?

[wagner]

SO No REPLIES or Photos?

Here's a Herm. Rath logo as seen on a Police Sword.

-wagner-

[ncblksmth1]

Can anyone else see this photo. I can not.
Thanks for trying Wagner

[Frogprince]

I hope that this helps. Here is Wagner’s image reposted alongside the earlier Police Degen that was posted. This past weekend I also saw an earlier image of the saber that can be modified, that might help explain some of the physical discrepancies. FP

[ncblksmth1]

FPrince:

Check the 1st "N" in Solingen. Look at the letter taper in both of these then look at mine. I think mine may just be an anomolly not an embelished original or fake like one of the experts has asserted.

From all appearances they all are original. Now here is the funny part. Rightly speaking most of the swords are marked under the langette or in the case of the police swords about 1.5" from the guard. Most swords are marked so that when pointing up the mark can be read. Anomolly:
Why is mine stamped with the correct and period stampings and yet upside down.

Hey froggy what do you think? Ordinary sword with screwy marking, new marking, or out and out fake? Could this be something that would upset the entire collecting world?

[ncblksmth1]

Additional photos of my Herm,Rath sword. After rubbing a towel between the langette and the blade I was able to clean a majority of whatever junk was in there. I also applied Swordfishes ammonia and dishwashing liquid cleaner to the sword and here are the results.

[Frogprince]

Hey froggy what do you think? Ordinary sword with screwy marking, new marking, or out and out fake? Could this be something that would upset the entire collecting world?

Since I’ve been asked what I think, why don’t I start with some things that were touched on elsewhere (the WAF) that might have some bearing on the matter. As regards Himmler, and the 1938 time frame for the German Police Degens by Krebs. Now obviously, I personally have not seen them all myself. But all of the Police Degens that come immediately to mind have used nickel plated steel fittings. Which I’m reasonably certain is also true for the post Krebs time period Police Degens with Rath markings (only Krebs initially had Himmler's permision to make them). Also believing, that the earliest Rath Degens had the same kind of TM/logo as the Army saber that 'Swordfish' posted ie: curved with no SS markings.

Now from the images posted, the hilt itself looks like what could be considered I think a relatively early ordinary brass Army Officer's saber. But when did copper (brass is 2/3 copper) became a restricted material, no longer to be used in the manufacture of various and sundry commercial/uniform items? It’s mentioned in 1935. But that did not necessarily have an immediate impact as makers were allowed to use preexisting stocks. Such as the early Model 1936 SS Degens which used nickel silver fittings (nickel silver is also mostly copper). With, as time progressed, German makers seeking and using alternative materials. And for the sabers as a group, new manufacture eventually ending up with gold or golden colored substitutes over zinc. With my point here having two purposes. That this is not a new manufacture “SS” saber in a post 1936 time frame. And what a lot of people did not know about until fairly recently. Was that that the Police Degens themselves were 1938 vintage. And the non-Krebs Police Degens, and consequently their markings, were at a minimum post 1938, or later. With several years later, their manufacture being terminated to conserve materials like steel and labor etc. for the war effort.

So we have the theoretical use of a more typical earlier period material. For what outwardly would be a generic “trade” quality saber (not having any discernible markings underneath the langet) in a later period time frame which raises some questions. And because the aforementioned “Rath” markings, which are (as has been already noted) tilted and inverted outside the langet area. I think that it’s fairly obvious that they were applied after the sword was finished/assembled.

Which then raises some questions as to to why? With the explanation that was posted earlier: “It appears to me that maybe someone in the German army was close to a Rath employee and may have wanted to order his sword through this company. ................ Chances are they simply asked the officer what he wanted, and merely ordered the sword through the same blade company that ordinarily made their Police swords.” I think has some problems because what is the logic behind that? The saber was not an SS (Himmler) approved design, so why not use the non-SS Rath stamps? Or is there something we don't know about? Like some evidence that German Army officers had also been instructed to look for the "SS Kulturzeichen"?? And what about all of those other makers - who made large and small numbers of both types of swords in that post 1938 time frame?

With that said. Lets look at the markings themselves. Where I see a number of things with some of the first ones being:

I see an “H” with the vertical sides not straight up and down. But having uneven width(s) and slanted/tapered internally at multiple angles. A “G” with the top horizontal part of the character looking like it’s compressed. And the curve and leftward tilt of the “N” on the far right. And some other things. But what I found even more interesting, was the ‘ghost’ from the outline of a second four sided “box’” Above and to the left of the heavily struck lower one. Now why is that?

So I’ve presented some of the background. And what it looks like to me in the images. And now you know some of what I am thinking. FP