Mystery sword
Just came across a a sword in old family belongings.
I know nothing about swords so not sure this is even the correct place to be asking questions.
The sword marking are "Eickhorn SOLINGEN" It has the number 1202 on the handle and the scabert. The Handel also has "C.E/39" which is also on the scabert.
There is also another small stamp I can't make out. Could possibly be No A253.
Any help with history or value would be great. Thanks
Wait on Ryan or Frogprince to tell you more about this sword, i'm no swords expert but IMO it is a standard army infantry NCO sword.
The WaA is the proofstamp (Waffen Abnahme Amt) the number 253 is related to the Inspector (personal numbers so its easily seen who did the proofings)
Inspectors changed Plants after a small period of time, so that there whould be no bonding with the factory management that could lead to bribe and "fake" quality proofings.
The 1202 is the Arsenal number of this sword (Kammerstempel)
C.E. / 39 = Carl Eickhorn 1939 produced.
Regards
Ger
Last edited by gerrit; 03-24-2017 at 10:32 AM.
Dove head at a quick glance.
Thread moved to the Third Reich Swords forum
It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!!- Larry C
One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C
“The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill
While it was called something else by the German Army, and in some English language books an "Ordnance" model, this saber I think could be called a general purpose Officer's saber for senior grade NCO's. A carryover from the Weimar era which used branch specific swords like Infantry, Cavalry, Artillery etc. but towards the end adopted a new manufacture general purpose saber which is the one pictured.
Not having time at this moment to discuss, I have a somewhat different view of why and how the Inspectorates (the WaA commission numbers) across the broad spectrum of where they were used sometimes changed or not). Agreeing that it's an Eickhorn made in 1939 with the interesting thing about it being that the serial or accountability number is from a new block of numbers.
With one piece of additional information that might surprise some new collectors the fact that the senior grade NCO's authorized the Officer's knot could also purchase their own Officer's model daggers and swords. Best Regards, Fred
Last edited by Larry C; 03-26-2017 at 12:19 AM.
Hi Martin, Ger and Fred have more or less covered your sabre details and the only comment that I would add is that in my opinion, the sword is a general purpose loan issue item. In the British Armed Forces, headquarters units have what are termed "Sword Banks" these banks loan swords out to units for specific ceremonial events and to individual officers for civil events like marriages etc. Officer training establishments also have sword banks with larger numbers of swords used for sword drill training and ceremonial events. All swords in these banks are serial numbered and sometimes unit marked.
My suggestion is that, whilst they very well may have been loaned to SNCOs, their primary use was training and by the mid to late 1930's the number of officers and SNCO's going through training was at a rate that necessitated the military to purchase and hold relatively large numbers of "drill" swords. Only my opinion based on my military experience.
Hope my input helps.
Cheers Michael R
Hello Michael, In my years in the Army both in the U.S. and overseas I was never at a main HQ that had a lot of ceremonial events, but I do understand the loans of specific items to carry out whatever mission, or assignment that needed to be done. Your idea having some merit by itself, and because I remember seeing some Luftwaffe documentation regarding the checking in and out of items from armories. That said, like some other military establishments, German Army Officers received funds specifically for uniforms and the other items they needed to properly serve, along with a monthly payment for maintenance of same. Whereas EM (with some very, very minor exceptions) had their needs provided at government expense. With the training command versus an operational unit (in peacetime like the 1935 dated saber) a little harder to resolve because it wasn't just training that was happening, there was also morale building with parades etc. So lets digress for a moment about the topic of government funded/property dress blades: The German Army had swords, but no daggers (other than private purchases). The much smaller German Navy swords, and a few daggers. The Luftwaffe, a fair number of both swords and daggers, with the wearing of daggers beside senior grade NCO's - extended to ordinary EM flight personnel. My point here being that there were some things going on that seem contradictory until you look at the regulations, and even then.by Michael Ryan
Best Regards, Fred
Last edited by Frogprince; 10-16-2017 at 07:42 PM. Reason: very minor clarification
Michael Ryan....I would like to confirm that the Swedish Navy today maintains "SWORD BANKS" for ceremonial events and weddings. Thanks, Doug.
Hi Doug, Thank you for your words. I can only speak for the British Military and reafirm repeat that all branches operate sword banks. In fact I own a Royal Navy officer's sword stamped up to the Royal Navy College Dartmouth. Ergo a training sword for Officer CAdets.
Cheers again Michael R
Hi Fred Thank you for your response. With the utmost respect, I would have to disagree with some but not all of your comments. I would suggest that like an officer cadet at RMA Sandhurst or the RAF College Cranwell, an officer cadet at West Point is not a commissioned officer until his class passes out and a commission is awarded? Ergo they require swords to learn and practice their drills on the assumption that they will earn their commissions but are not, as yet entitled officers. Would you not agree? Further the payments against clothing allowances for specific uniforms, accoutrements and equipment, at least with us, is not commensurate with being appointed a cadet officer but rather on the award of the commission subsequent to being a cadet.
With regard to the Army dagger, my understanding is that the dagger was a private purchase item, possibly from an allowance, I do not know, and used solely for dress and not ceremonial wear?? In any event I am not aware of any military parade drill for a drawn dagger whereas the sword is a universal parade and ceremonial item as well as a walking out side arm. Ergo no requirement for dagger drill?
When I mentioned HQ Units holding swords, what I was referring to was swords for loan issue to subordinate units for instance, a USAF Command loaning swords to a USAF Base for a specific requirement then returned. Sorry if I confused or clouded the issue.
I have never seen a TR Army dagger bearing government markings, agreed. However I have seen Army, Navy and Air Force swords and in the case of the N/AF, daggers. Why that should be, I can only imagine.
Anyway, I hope that my comment make sense.
Best wishes and regards Michael
Hello Michael, A Naval Officer's sword that's in my family belongs to one of my brothers, a private purchase, who still has it. An engineer when he went into the Navy, he was an EM who then went to an Officer Candidate School to receive his commission. So I'm going to have to respectfully disagree to some extent - while I think about this to put it in the context of the period German Army. And you are correct about the swords being what was carried in the performance of military duties, with the daggers authorized for use with specific uniforms as more of a less obtrusive badge of rank or prestige while off duty.
PS: Something else to think about is the fact that the Imperial government issue types are much scarcer than the private purchase types, which is also to a greater or lesser extent true in the TR era depending on the service branch. With Best Regards, Fred
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