Mystery Sword. No mark.

[Adrian Stevenson]

I would rate it more like the $600 you were offered.

Cheers, Ade.

[ww2fotos]

about $300 on the east coast

$300 for this nice sword? I'll take 6 of them!

[Swordfish]

It's a Rich Herder Heer officer saber. Not the easiest example to find- as such it adds a bit of value, especially for the advanced collector. Hilt assembly cast in brass.

Condition looks good, though from the pics, there's a chance the scabbard might be a repait. Better pics could probably answer that- different background, and different lighting- natural filtered sunlight. Everything else looks good. I cannot ascertain how much factory gilt is intact from the photos- again, better lighting and backgroud would help.

Value- well certainly more than $300. But hey, if someone wants to let it go for $300, let me know. As my peer said, i'll take 6 also. I don't like to quote values anymore openly in the forums. Without a determination on the scabbard paint and the %age of gilt intact it's really tough to say. However, assuming the scabbard paint is period, and assuming the hilt assembly retains 80% or more of her factory gilting, I would put this one in the $450-$550 range. There are some guys out there who exclusively collect sabers by specific manufacturers, like Rich Herder pieces. These collectors are more likely to pay a premium and pay on the upper side because they want the specific pattern. The general, casual collector is NOT as discerning. The market is still a bit sluggish still, but has been picking up in the last 6 months.

Post some better pics, and we might be able to come up with a bit more solid numbers. Of course this is only my opinion based on my experience and current maret conditions.

[Frogprince]

Tom,

You are going to have to tell me if this is the same exact sword or not. Because the top of the nose looks like it might be a little different, and I trust your expertise. But on another forum not too ago. I remember being told by a "somebody", or was it a pair of somebody's (?), that the example I'm posting here was a piece of junk that they would not have in their collections. And that it had been re-hilted because the top "button" was not perfectly flush.

Best Regards, FP

[tampalam]

The most I have seen a similar sword sell for here in the US is about 500 and you can find them for much less.

[LMG 1]

Tom,

You are going to have to tell me if this is the same exact sword or not. Because the top of the nose looks like it might be a little different. But on another forum not too ago. I remember being told by a "somebody" or was it a pair of 'somebody's (?), that the example I'm posting here was a piece of junk that they would not have in their collections. And that it had been re-hilted because the top "button" was not perfectly flush.

Best Regards, FP

The pommel looks fine with this example,certainly not Junk and looks like the same model to me.
Tom, is there a Herder doves head version of this sword and if so how rare is it?,
and i believe it would have an unmarked blade as well?

[Frogprince]

The pommel looks fine with this example,certainly not Junk and looks like the same model to me.
Tom, is there a Herder doves head version of this sword and if so how rare is it?,
and i believe it would have an unmarked blade as well?

Luke, I knew that it wasn't junk. But what I found that was particularly amusing, was the fact that someone who I know to a certainty was very well known to one of them. Had at least a half dozen swords for sale where the buttons had been removed and replaced, or they were at the very least protruding quite prominently. With some sticking up to +/- 3/16 inch away from the hilt. Best Regards, FP

[Walkwolf]

I would rate it more like the $600 you were offered.

Cheers, Ade.

Yes.

$500 - $600 Retail.
It is in fine condition ............... !

[Swordfish]

Fred-
We all know this piece is right as rain and has never been rehilted and repeened. Lionheads are notoriously difficult to rehilt and as I had brought up on a thread on GD I started, a rehilt on this piece would require either a shoulder downing on the blade, or a tang extension. Even more so, the rehilter would need to reblend the mushroomed peen into the lions mane again. Unless someone had a very strong set of metal working skills, I just don't see it happening. Rehilting a doveshead with an internal peen is much easier and alot more fogiving than their lionhead counterparts. The piece is spot on through and through. I love how people make an assertion without having the slightest clue and can provide absolutely no credible justification for their posture. My God! This is a very very nice piece that EVERYONE would be happy to have in their collection.

The only potential area of concern on the piece Fred posted is the grip. Note the upper grip, below the location where the grip meets the pommel, on the obverse side. It appears that there may have been a crack or a chip. Someone probably used some sort of an epoxy resin to make a repair. I use JB Weld for celluloid issues. It may just be the photos, but as I said, that's the only conditional issue I can immediately see.

Herder? No- but looks close. Notice the seemingly insignificant differences. As you pointed out, the lions nose has been hand worked, after the hilt was cast. But, the biggest difference lies withing the P-gaurd/quillion assembly. Take note of the L-joint transition area between the quillion and the base of the P-guard. Note that on the pattern you posted the transition area is embellished with a curl-e-q which terminates on the quillion block itself. Where on the Herder, the embellishment form a sideways recessed L which is cast into the assembly. Also note the grip cradle portion of the backstrap assembly. The piece Fred posted has the commonly seen acorns while the Herder does not. Also of note is the direction in which the eagles head is pointing. There are a few seemingly minute differences, however there are differences, and when viewed in their totality, it's clear these are different patterns....but close- very close. Don't forget about the feathered wings on the Herder.

There are a couple patterns by different manufacturers that are nearly identical to the Herder. When I am able to, i'll dig through my digital image library, reference like Angolia and period catalogs.

I can say with absolute certainty these are 2 different sabers, yet are very very similiar.

Luke- to answer your question yes. I am nearly certain Herder did produce this pattern in the doveshead variety. You won't find it in Angolia or other contemporary reference, but I am 99% certain I have seen the doveshead variety. I can't say that I am 100% emphatically certain because i don't have the photographic evidence, or a herder NR # that delliniates the doveshead. But going off my experience, I HAVE seen the pattern in dovesead.

Below is an image of the piece Fred posted, as well as the Herder being discussed here. Not the differences in the P-guard/quillion joint I was referring to.

UPDATE
The piece Fred posted is a Voos. I am certain. The Herder, a Klaas and a Voos are all nearly similiar to both of these patterns, other than than the small differences, which delliniate each as being from different manufacturers. The most striking embellishment which identifies this piece as a Voos is the langet. Note the series of beads on both the right and left sides of the langet, running parallel the raised bevelling.

[LMG 1]

I think i own the doves head version of the herder?,sorry about the picture,but my collection is stored away untill i move.
It has the same p guard joint as Freds