Kriegsmarine pommels by makers - For reference

[stingray]

Hi there
I forgot to mention that they are all Pack daggers.
So is it possible that the Pack made there own fittings?

[thebig]

Hello Tomaz.

I was too busy last week and have had no time to support your thread. Now I can do it. Who was a maker of the Puma eagle is not an easy question. Probably we will never know it for sure. But I don`t think it was WKC. I personally have always thought that the eagles by Hörster, Puma, Weyersberg and maybe E.Pack have used the Eagles of a same design. I call it "a Hörster design". Please take a look at the picture I have made today. An important points to compare are a heads, breasts, claws, swastika and wreaths. If you will compare these points, you will probably see that the Puma eagle is not similar to WKC eagle, but has more similar points with a Hörster eagle. It is just my observing.

Best,
Oleg.

[dr73]

Great detailed pictures Oleg! I also feel that the Puma pommel has the most in common with the Hörster pommel. I agree with you that it is hard to say who actually made the Puma pommel.

Danny

[Wagriff]

I have to add, for what it's worth, my opinion that I,also, do not see the connection between the WKC designs and the Puma's. The eagles are completely different-particularly the heads- and the leaves of the wreaths do not match up-nor do the swastikas. In fact, I am having difficulty with comparing the Puma to Any of the photographed others. It seems to have it's own unique design work to it. I have no clue as to the maker of the Puma pommels. but I definitely would agree that it was not WKC. Perhaps Puma simply ordered them from an as of yet unknown or unidentified sub-contractor.

[Tomaz]

Thanks guys for the replies, what I am saying doesn't seem to be registering, I have explained why the Puma , Clemen & Jung, Horster, Weyersberg and Luneschloss have different heads and swastikas, it is to distinguish the pommels apart from each other. I don't know how you, apart from Heers 68 (Kevin) can not see the same pattern of leaves in the design of the Puma wreath to the WKC, it is this and other features that link this pommel to the WKC pommel as it is the same pattern of leaves as the WKC standard pommel as well as other features being the same which I have already explained.

Everyone keeps mentioning the different head and swastika, forget about the head and swastika, these as said have been modified that's why they are different. The pommels of the Puma as well as Clemen & Jung, Horster, Weyersberg and Luneschloss are not unique designs because of the same wreath, same lines separating the wing sections, same back feathering design and overall shape, although slightly narrower, as WKC.

The large banana feet on WKCs can also be seen on the others. All these features are a link to WKC, making these pommels generic pommels manufactured by WKC.
Oleg thanks for showing these pommels, as shown they are on different makes of daggers, so different companies. Why have they all got the same leaf pattern wreath if they were designed and manufactured by different companies ?

Can you really not see the same features on these as the WKC pommel ? The Alcoso, Holler and Eickhorn are unique designs, the Puma, Clemen & Jung, Weyersberg, Horster and Luneschloss are part WKC designed taken from their standard pommel.

Looking at the percentages of navy daggers produced, with Eickhorn & WKC at about 70% and lets say a low 10% for Holler and Alcoso including Adolf Braun as they were Alcoso supplied, this only leaves 20% between the other 5 companies who regularly produced, although in small numbers, navy daggers. That's only 4% of the market each, maybe slightly more for Horster and even less for Weyersberg, Clemen & Jung, Puma and Luneschloss. For this small amount it would have been much easier and more economical to buy parts in and to finnish them in house to produce their daggers.

Going back to the pommels, with these small companies using the same design features as WKC (if you look you can see them, or is it only me and Kevin) I think WKC had to have something to do with the design and manufacture of these "generic" pommels.

[Tomaz]

With WKC manufacturing navy daggers from the imperial era, as were Eickhorn, Alcoso and Holler it may have been left to these traditional long established companies to carry this on through the third reich period.
Another thing worth noting is the same procedure of small changes with the replacement pommels by Eickhorn and Holler. Everything points to these few companies as being the only manufactures of navy dagger parts.
I don't think I can say much more on this, you either see it or you don't. Thanks for your replies and thanks for the support Heers68 (Kevin) post 8, its one more than I expected lol.


Stingray the Pack navy dagger is classed as super rare and should have the large logo on the blade, small logo packs have been post war reproduced. The small logo was not used after 38 by pack. The fact that the look of these pommels on your Packs are so hard to distinguish from WKC (remember forget the head and swastika) reinforces my belief that they are a generic pommel made by WKC for a company that made so few navy daggers that not many are in existence today.

Best Tomaz.

[stingray]

Hi Thomas
Yes, you're right, they have a large Siegfried maker marks.

Regards

[Sorge]

Hi guys,
I think that it is difficult without access to trade documents to assess the direct components manufacturers. Comparing the pommels I see a lot of similarities so I think it's better to focus on the differences.
I noticed a sharp triangular shape of the feathers on the chest of the WKC pommel which is not seen on Horster, Puma and Klaas. Puma compared to Horster has visibly thinner neck and smaller head, but there are also some differences in the individual finishes.
Just my thoughts.
On my photo on the twelve o'clock I start from Alcoso, Weyersberg, Horster, Puma, WKC, Klaas, replacement Holler type, Holler, WKC unmarked, replacement Eickhorn? type (often seen on the M29 WKC), aluminium Eickhorn type and finally a standard Eickhorn.

[Sorge]

And again if we take a WKC type triangular chest and Horster (+/-) type eagle head ...this creates Weyersberg pommel

[dr73]

That's an impressive collection of navy daggers you are showing Sorge! I hope you will share some pictures of the complete daggers with us in the near future.

Danny