Deutsche Kreuz in gold real or fake?

**Adrian** · 03-28-2011, 10:43 AM

by Jon-Olav Holden

Old thread, sorry for bumping.

This appears to be a S&L cross. As far as i know, no one knows when they was made.

No harm in bumping Jon, sometimes these old threads have useful information and it doesn't hurt to bring them to the top again.
So from what you're saying, S&L did make DKs but no-one can be sure if they were made prior to May 1945 or after and therefore if you want to buy one you take the risk on it being a non period made award.

**Espenlaub Militaria** · 03-28-2011 10:43 AM

We also buy and trade your items and full collections!

**fabri** · 03-28-2011, 12:27 PM

I agree with you. Personally I tend to think that they are post war.

**Jon-Olav Holden** · 03-28-2011, 01:04 PM

by Adrian

No harm in bumping Jon, sometimes these old threads have useful information and it doesn't hurt to bring them to the top again.
So from what you're saying, S&L did make DKs but no-one can be sure if they were made prior to May 1945 or after and therefore if you want to buy one you take the risk on it being a non period made award.

Ok :-)

Yep, i would need stone solid proof if i was going to buy one as wartime. But wouldn't pay the same as for example a zimmermann or a Juncker.
I had three of them a while ago, and sold them for 300 euro each if i remember correctly, they are pretty nice but IMO only as fillers without documentation.

**Adrian** · 03-28-2011, 02:07 PM

by Jon-Olav Holden

I had three of them a while ago, and sold them for 300 euro each if i remember correctly, they are pretty nice but IMO only as fillers without documentation.

There is a case for them as space fillers as you say. They do look the part and can be picked up for little money compared to known originals.

However.....

Just to encourage discussion, how likely is it that S&L would start to make DKs after the war ended, take the time to manufacture the tools to make the components, make the parts and assemble the end product if they didn't already have this in place prior to the cessation of hostilities?
Surely S&L would've had the resources to make them before the end of the war instead of deciding to make them only when the need for DK had gone? Therefore, isn't it very likely that S&L were manufacturing these awards before May '45 and continued afterwards and/or just used up their wartime stock?

**Jon-Olav Holden** · 03-28-2011, 02:56 PM

by Adrian

Just to encourage discussion, how likely is it that S&L would start to make DKs after the war ended, take the time to manufacture the tools to make the components, make the parts and assemble the end product if they didn't already have this in place prior to the cessation of hostilities?
Surely S&L would've had the resources to make them before the end of the war instead of deciding to make them only when the need for DK had gone? Therefore, isn't it very likely that S&L were manufacturing these awards before May '45 and continued afterwards and/or just used up their wartime stock?

That is very true ! And if i remember correctly i have seen a S&L cross with provenance from the war.

Rudolf Souval where making German crosses after the war which is pretty decent as fillers, and of course 100% fake. But he would have to have made the
tool to make these awards after the war, as they where made in the 60s (?) Since he never made these crosses during the war. But he made replica's of most of the period decorations, which S&L didn't do as far as i'm aware.

**Adrian** · 03-28-2011, 03:13 PM

I know if I was offered a €300 S&L DK I would take my chances and buy it because you just never know!
I think the difference between S&L and Souval is geography. Souval was based in Austria and the same restrictions regarding the swastika didn't apply there so he pretty much had free reign to make what he liked and with the GI souvenir market it would've been worth his while (as we know today) to get the tooling made to produce these awards.
S&L being in Germany would not have had the same opportunity to produce awards on a Souval scale which is why (I believe) there is the possibility that S&L DKs were made, at least in part before May '45.

**Glenn66** · 03-29-2011, 06:34 AM

Perhaps the Zimmerman plant in Berlin was destroyed and/or fell into the Soviet zone and the Junker plant in Stuttgart was damaged/destroyed during the Aliied bombing offensive and the dies were available for purchase by S&L?

**Eric Zentner** · 03-29-2011, 07:22 AM

It would not be one for me. Pin and rivots to start with Ive been looking at these for years and I will have a good one some day!

Eric

**fabri** · 03-29-2011, 01:23 PM

I start from these points, maybe not 100% right: in my opinion wartime S&L products seems to me always very fine, maybe more than the standard.
The second point is, materials used changed during the war, at the end they were poor materials but they always obtained very good results.
Strange thing is to see a so important decoration with a lower quality than EKI-EKIIs.. the S&L DKs have not the standard high quality, it 's lower than all other DKs.
They are nice but not so fine for a so important orden should have. But I would pay more than 300.- to have one.
Naturally this is just my point of view.

Michael Chernyak · 09-23-2011, 01:07 PM

Dear All, I have finally decided to put this German Cross in Gold for sale, I have put it on Ebay but it was deleted due to stupid Ebay rules. I have 3 people interested so far, but the highest offer i received for the moment is only 500 USD, if someone can propose more, i will gladly consider it
Regards,
Michael