Dotted DKis - the final result.

[Scout]

If this is a true account, then shame on you Petesav...............I utterly agree with Ned's last statement !
Shaking head in disbelief ! Steve.

Indeed.
IF this is true, Petesav stirred the pot in the first thread, then further more now that the DK supposedly have been determined to be genuine AND rare stand to score massively in an economic sense and STILL sent an insulting mail to the seller.
A seller whose named has been dragged through the mud not only here but on several forums.
Thats just not right.

[petesav]

Well how the pack attack on mass.
Nice how all the late commers are so highly powered by this.
Ok well heres how it is the buyer rearly only wants you to see the first and last page.
I think its a bit of an up yours rearly.
An action that will make most of you wet yourselves and jump on the keybord to send another dull attack on me.
Well i did tell you i was waiting.
Sorry Ned thought i could break my word but i cant.As you say about the heard very true.
Problem is they will read this and just do the heard thing again.
Did i insult Kevin yes i did.There was a comment of if i wanted to do something about it was to bring it on.and to go to his house.
Sorry Kevin 2 days travel loss of work MORE time spent on you ,thanks for the offer but no.On the other hand you do have my address and email i aint going anywhere.
so where are we up to .
Ah yes as i WONT break my word for any of you keybord Rambos .
i only came here in the first place to uncover dogey practice.
That was proven but i got the fake bit wrong.
there is no need to accept Kevins request to go as i am.THANK Fxxk.
i hope there is a massive flood of yes good riddence and good show,it will be a waste as i will block any mail so waste of time.
Adrian you God like creature that moderates so many bloody areas moderate this one and take me OFF the membership ASAP good buy to the rambos and see i will see the rest on the other forums.
all my best Pete

[big ned]

Currently running on WAF is the thread this quote from Dietrich Maerz comes from.

Quote:

"Even running the danger of being outen and chastised: this German Cross in Silver (dotted) is a genuine example, made by C.F. Zimmermann.

I am sure that everybody here understands that I don't give a flying rat whether the cross is good or bad - all I am interested is what I see and what I conclude based on my knowledge and reserach.

I was contacted and I have the cross here on my desk. I wrote a positive expertise for it. Here is why:

- the cross has the typical 11 o'clock flaw of every genuine Zimmermann
- the rivets are all genuine, one has traces of damage. But they were never opened
- the parts are all correct (pin, catch, catch plate, starburts plate, swastika)
- the "20" stamp is absolute genuine and complete (not cut-off)
- the wreath is made of Tombak and is silvered (not painted with silver paint)
- the "dotted" date corresponds to all the other "dotted" dates I have on file
- the medaillion plate is magnetic
- the swastika is genuine Zimmermann
- the weight is correct
- the backplate is made of the typical Cupal used by Ziimmermann

I know that there are discussions whether the "dotted" variation of Zimmermann is a genuine product made before May 1945 and everybody can think and believe whatever he wants. There should be only one condition: include all known fact. And if one includes all known facts and incorporates the microscopic traces visible under personal investigation one should come to the same conclusion I came: This is a genuine Zimmermann product with all parts Zimmermann. The only different parst is the wreath with the dotted date. But that wreath was originally attached to the cross and not replaced.

To say: "I don't like it" ist not a determination factor for good or bad, and never was.

I think that Pete got a rare and original "dotted" German Cross in Silver.

Dietrich

PS: Just as another thought: IF this is a fake, why did a faker get everything right, down to the correct material, stamp, weight, and dies traces, but then used a "dotted" wreath? How crazy is that? Not to speak of the perfect patina under the microscope."

End Quote.

The thread in question:


My first DKis 20 - Page 2 - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums


And for continuity, another running on HWF:

DKis The One we all cried fake. - Crosses of the Third Reich: Iron Crosses, War Merit & Knight

There it is, all the information required to make up one's own mind either way.

Regards, Ned.

[meyle77]

nice attitude - good luck in life

[Scout]

petesav - you seem to miss the point entirely; you have accused a person of selling a fake.
The DK turned out to be genuine.
As the original thread is now deleted, I cant see if you apologized to the seller in there, but it seems to me that you owe the seller to apologize profusely. I cant say, whether or not the seller responded in kind to your insults be in on the forum or via PM/mails, but isnt that besides the point, when it was you who accused him of selling a fake DK (rhetorical quesion).
The tone is usually good on this nice forum apart from the few loons (Im not referring to anybody who have hitherto posted in this thread) and I have no dog in this fight and certainly dont consider myself a Rambo. How ever, considering the facts which have emerged, you seem to be bang out of order (I say 'seem' as I might not be privy to what goes on behind the scenes nor what transpired just before the original thread got deleted).

[SteveR]

Your not talking about sex are you ?

[Scout]

Just now followed Ned's links in his above post.

A quote from petesav:

Well gents a funney thing has happend.

I have recived the Reply from Dietrich Maerz on the originalty of that cross.

Well it is real .In fact it is a very very rare varient of Zimmermann.

Now Kevin ime sorry for calling it a copy .

You didnt know it was good or bad did you.you xxxxxxxxxx I cannot print that..As for the underhanded way you conducted yourself you should hang your head in shame forever.

Have got an expertise with it from Dietrich.

So a big thanks from me to all that offered their support and help .on what looked to be a very big mistake on my behalf.

Thanks again guys You kept me going.

Wow....just wow.

So telling people that the DK is genuine, but at the same time calling Kevin a mXXXXXXXXXXr

I think, that I'll amned my comment about there being no loons in this thread......................................

[Adrian]

Well how the pack attack on mass.
Nice how all the late commers are so highly powered by this.
Ok well heres how it is the buyer rearly only wants you to see the first and last page.
I think its a bit of an up yours rearly.
An action that will make most of you wet yourselves and jump on the keybord to send another dull attack on me.
Well i did tell you i was waiting.
Sorry Ned thought i could break my word but i cant.As you say about the heard very true.
Problem is they will read this and just do the heard thing again.
Did i insult Kevin yes i did.There was a comment of if i wanted to do something about it was to bring it on.and to go to his house.
Sorry Kevin 2 days travel loss of work MORE time spent on you ,thanks for the offer but no.On the other hand you do have my address and email i aint going anywhere.
so where are we up to .
Ah yes as i WONT break my word for any of you keybord Rambos .
i only came here in the first place to uncover dogey practice.
That was proven but i got the fake bit wrong.
there is no need to accept Kevins request to go as i am.THANK Fxxk.
i hope there is a massive flood of yes good riddence and good show,it will be a waste as i will block any mail so waste of time.
Adrian you God like creature that moderates so many bloody areas moderate this one and take me OFF the membership ASAP good buy to the rambos and see i will see the rest on the other forums.
all my best Pete

Well Pete, finally you have stepped up and done what you could've and should've done earlier.

There was no mass attack, just a group of people fed up and annoyed with your game.

If the buyer wants to say 'up yours' to us then fine, it's not really the point is it? The point is establishing fact from fiction.

To accuse others of 'attacking' you is really rather lame when you actually joined the forum to 'attack' someone else. In this case, someone who was selling a DKiS as original, you bought it as original and......... guess what........ it is original!!!!!

You are a victim of your own arrogance and the fact you can spend that amount of money without actually realising what you are buying speaks volumes. If you can't be bothered to put the time and effort into knowing on what your money is being spent then you deserve to be out of pocket although in this instance, ironically, you've doubled your money.

You want to blame another member for your own mistakes and lack of effort. You want to blame him for your travelling and loss of time at work? I really don't understand that, a pointless comment. No idea how that can be Kevin's fault.

You didn't come here to uncover dodgy practice, you came here to scream 'I've been ripped off' as loudly as you can and hope that everyone would take your side and castigate the other party. You haven't been entirely honest with your version of events and right from the start, there was a big doubt as to whether or not you had been ripped off - I mean, the piece hadn't even been confirmed as a fake?
You came to the wrong forum if that was your intention.

You were proven wrong and now you are half heartedly trying to save face by offering the evidence you have been under some pressure to produce and finish off with backhanded insults to the members here. There is no need to post xxxxxed out swear words in your posts, we are adults here and that kind of thing is really not necessary.

You have only been here a short time but have proven yourself to have more money than sense, no sense of decorum or decency, will resort to insults and accusations as soon as you think you've been a 'victim' and on top of that have shown you are not really interested in the hobby as a whole. Your efforts on the Deutsche Adlerorder thread are priceless.

I appreciate your 'God like creature' remark Pete but I think you're mistaking me for someone who is bothered by your comments. I'm not.
I am just a person along with many others here who is sick and tired of your games, your laziness, your willingness to blame everyone else for your mistakes and not actually engage in a positive manner to resolve the problem and admit your mistakes with any grace or dignity. I have seen many like you before and will doubtless see many like you in the future. You are quick to jump in when you think you've been wronged but very reluctant to apologise and participate in a manner that is worthy of an adult.
I moderate this section of the forum and try to be as open minded and impartial as possible but I will not stand back and let one member accuse another of wrongdoing without knowing the facts and both sides of the story. You had the opportunity in the original thread and refused to take it. I am here to discuss militaria and not play Jeremy Kyle to your woes that you brought upon yourself.

If you don't wish to be a member here then you do not need to log onto the forum, no-one is making you.

[edelweiss123]

If this item is truly going to a member on this forum then I am happy. Happy for them as although I don't collect such items, I appreciate this will be a superb item for someone. I'm also happy that if it is going to someone who not only comes on this forum, but to a member of the FORUM COMMUNITY, that they will impart the knowledge of what truly makes this item rare and original, and providing the necessary evidence, thus furthering all of our knowledge.

I have learnt so much from this forum, but that is only through the generosity and kindness that members have shown me and the information they have taught me. I find it sad that some people want to stop the progression of militaria knowledge just for exclusivity or monetary gain. That is not what we should stand for.

Sorry for the rant guys

[tempelhof]

well, it's good.

it's good to hear.

i guess my only curiosity is about all the drama concerning the expertise. were i a buyer and had i asked that the expertise not be shown, i'd certainly assume that request would be understood as also meaning that i would not like the seller to publish the fact the expertise existed at all. showing it and stating it exists are identical in terms of publishing the Maerz opinion regarding these crosses.

stating it exists and showing it are the same in my opinion when, in this business of buying and selling between strangers, a man is taken at his word and his word is by necessity presumed to match the facts. we all live and die by this in the hobby.

i cast no aspersions. i only mean to point out that good will has been affected where it need not have been over something which, in this case, done or not done appears the same. it was in the way it was handled i suppose.

preferably, if one felt a binding obligation not to publish the opinion on this cross while said buyer "looks around", the existence of the expertise would not have been revealed at all with perhaps the understanding that the buyer, especially a member here, might publish this expertise and the cross upon his receiving them if he were to so choose. and we would hope that he would to the benefit of the community here which, as a whole, have tirelessly benefited the hobby.

i am, however, glad to hear the cross is solidly backed. it's been in your position a long time and the outcome you've received is the best possible one. that's the important thing.

and, since you did choose to do so, thank you for posting the expertise and updating us re: this cross. the discussion is made far more valuable by this.