Rare Petz & Lorenz Kriegsabzeichen für Minesuch - Sicherungsverbände.

[Adrian]

Thank you for your comments on the badge guys, much appreciated.

Now, things are never simple when it comes to Petz & Lorenz/Schickle matters.
Ned has posted a pic that he says shows a Schickle and a P&L.
I believe both badges are P&L.
The differences in the water spout I thought were down to hand finishing as opposed to a straight forward machine stamp. P&L and Schickle used the same obverse design as Schickle but the Schickle design had a small flaw on the swastika that the P&L didn't - the waterspout cut outs were due to the difference in finishing techniques.

Below is a pic I borrowed from WAF that came from GCA which shows the catalogue pictures and the flaw on the swastika - note the waterspout shapes are the same.......

[Norm F]

Ned has posted a pic that he says shows a Schickle and a P&L.
I believe both badges are P&L.
The differences in the water spout I thought were down to hand finishing as opposed to a straight forward machine stamp. P&L and Schickle used the same obverse design as Schickle but the Schickle design had a small flaw on the swastika that the P&L didn't - the waterspout cut outs were due to the difference in finishing techniques.

Below is a pic I borrowed from WAF that came from GCA which shows the catalogue pictures and the flaw on the swastika - note the waterspout shapes are the same.......

Hi Adrian,

Quite right, the photo that Ned showed is indeed of two P&L examples. That scan was posted by Giel on GCA along with their weights back in 2011, and come to think of it I believe he mentioned he got them from a guy in the U.K. -- maybe Ned? Anyway, the one on the right I bought from Giel and in retrospect I wish I had bought both. The one on the right has been trimmed with the standard P&L trimming stamp and has the usual outlines of these badges whereas the one on the left is a variant with hand finished margins instead of the standard trimming stamp. As Ned mentioned it's also heavier - 30 g vs. 24 g - and I suspect it was an earlier version before transitioning to the standard trimming stamp. You see similar transitioning from hand finished margins to standardized trimming stamps in the Tombak U-Boat badges of Juncker and Meybauer.

As you know the Schickle Minesweepers, in contrast, have a different outline and different setups from the P&L, as well as the characteristic swastika flaw you've pointed out in that catalogue comparison I did on GCA back in 2011 (The P&L catalogue belongs to Dietrich Maerz and I'm not sure who now owns the Schickle catalogue with the loose supplement pages with the Minesweeper image.) The Schickle too comes in a variety of weights depending on the thickness of Tombak stock used for the planchets. I have several examples ranging in weight from 22 g to 30 g.

Cheers,
---Norm

P.S. Great badge BTW!

[Norm F]

The P&L attribution saga is also covered in Volume I of the expanded English version of "The Kriegsmarine Awards" on pages 298 to 301 (along with this example of the badge), while the Schickle Minesweeper attribution is covered in Volume III on pages 122-137.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Adrian]

Thank you Norm, your expertise is always greatly appreciated.