russian hoarde

[martc]

could some one please explain to me exactley what the russian horde is/was?????? i've been on a few web sites recently looking to increase my small TR collection and i keep coming across,, " from the russian horde""" bloody hell it must have been some horde??? lol,lol,

[SteveR]

Russian hoard ?
I am sure there have been a few Russians that horde. Every country has them.
I don't have a clue what it is buddy.

[Australia]

Zimmerman hoard ?

Or this one ? Deschler hoard Mutterkreuz.....

"Quoted from other source ,

All right. I would love to assemble all the collective knowledge about this story in one thread; maybe we know more than we think? I'll start it off by listing what I've read so far:

The Fire and the "Discovery"

The story is that a cache, or hoard, of Third Reich-era decorations and medals was discovered in the ruins of a burned-out factory, said to be the C F Zimmerman factory, a respected manufacturer or orders, decorations and medals.

During World War II, the Zimmerman factory was located on Dr. Fritz-Todt Straße in Pforzheim, Germany - not in Lüdenscheid as sometimes reported. Pforzheim was heavily bombed during the war, and the street name has changed since then.

The "discovery" of the hoard happened in or shortly before July, 2005 but no one can say just when the fire happened, although it is believed the fire was during World War II. Why the hoard remained undiscovered for some 50 years is unclear.

There was an uncommon number of rare awards discovered in the hoard.

Items (said to have been) discovered:

--At least one (1) German Order, unfinished condition.

--Five (5) 1939 Großkreuze. Marked? I need clarification. Also at least one (1) GK core.

--At least one "21" marked Oakleaves and one "21" marked Oakleaves and Swords.

--1939 Zimmerman "800" and "20" marked Ritterkreuze. At least 10 are said to have been found. 5 or 6 are known to have been sold. One came from Bill Shea of Ruptured Duck. One from Helmut Weitze. One from Barry Turk at eMedals. Some had no ribbon loops. Some had Imperial-style oval loops, as expected with Zimmerman RKs. At least one had a standard TR-style loop. All examples show signs of rust, melted solder and burning, but at least one was "restored" before selling. There is some evidence that more marked Zimmerman Ritterkreuze remain, as yet unsold.

--Burnt and bent Ritterkreuz parts: frames and a piece of core were sold with COA by Detlev Niemann as a lot. A core is offered as of this writing at eMedals.

--"Several" lower grades of the EK marked "20" This could be EK1s or even EK2s, of which no "20" marked examples are currently known (by me) to exist.

--Five Prinzen EKs. One was a 1914 EK1. One was a rare Prinzen 1939 EK2. The class and issue year of the other 3 are unknown at this writing.

--An uncut frame and a separate cast iron core for a 1914 Großkreuz.

--Assorted odds-and-ends: unfinished awards and decorations, an EK2 core, an uncut EK2 spange, c. 80lbs. of mostly unrecognizable rubble, etc etc.

I need more information about just what was discovered here. Please add what you know to this thread, and I can update this list if need be.

Authenticity:

The Zimmerman RKs, at least, are known to be identical to wartime manufactured examples - all markings, dimensions and die flaws are the same as known originals - and are therefore considered genuine. This goes a long way towards authenticating both the story and the other items offered with this story as provenance, but is not (in my view) decisive.

Additionally, the 1939 EK2 core's date-style from this hoard seems a perfect match to known Zimmerman 1939 EK1 core date-styles, offering further evidence that the hoard did indeed originate in the Zimmerman factory."

[big ned]

Some info here, the horde was picked up by Helmut Weitze in late 1999 alledgedly from a Russian official. I have also heard that there were also Mayer EK1 spanges found with the crosses in a footlocker that was 'liberated' from a train in the war so the story goes.

Quote:

The Russian Horde IC 1st Class
Michael Everett

"The story was quite unremarkable. What makes it the more interesting is that many collectors felt it was too good to be true and claimed that these '26's were actually reproduction! (If these are fakes we are in a world of trouble).

Anyway, here's my personal knowledge and story.

I was stationed in Germany at the time (1997-2001) and made it a habit to call Helmut almost every two weeks to see 'what was hot'. In December of 1999 I called Helmut about three days before Christmas. He related to me a story that a 'Russian' had discovered the awards stockage of a German Infantry Division's EK1 supply. The foot locker conatined 300 unissued '26' marked EK1s and he purchased all of them. I, like most, was very skeptical but, asked him to send me two examples. When they arrived I was shocked. They were real and perfect. Eventually I purchased over 65 pieces at $275.00 each and eventually selling all but three to major US dealers.
I sold my last retail piece for $1000.00 three months ago.

The quantity that I handled consisted of the following:

Most were marked '26'
A very small number were not marked but, were of the '26' type.
All were in the square cases with the rectangular 'push button'.
A number of examples had paint bubbling under the core.
Alll had some degree of lacquer loss from 1% to 25%".

MIKE. End quote.

Regards, Ned.

[big ned]

Zimmerman hoard ?

All right. I would love to assemble all the collective knowledge about this story in one thread; maybe we know more than we think? I'll start it off by listing what I've read so far:

The Fire and the "Discovery"

The story is that a cache, or hoard, of Third Reich-era decorations and medals was discovered in the ruins of a burned-out factory, said to be the C F Zimmerman factory, a respected manufacturer or orders, decorations and medals.

During World War II, the Zimmerman factory was located on Dr. Fritz-Todt Straße in Pforzheim, Germany - not in Lüdenscheid as sometimes reported. Pforzheim was heavily bombed during the war, and the street name has changed since then.

The "discovery" of the hoard happened in or shortly before July, 2005 but no one can say just when the fire happened, although it is believed the fire was during World War II. Why the hoard remained undiscovered for some 50 years is unclear.

There was an uncommon number of rare awards discovered in the hoard.

Items (said to have been) discovered:

--At least one (1) German Order, unfinished condition.

--Five (5) 1939 Großkreuze. Marked? I need clarification. Also at least one (1) GK core.

--At least one "21" marked Oakleaves and one "21" marked Oakleaves and Swords.

--1939 Zimmerman "800" and "20" marked Ritterkreuze. At least 10 are said to have been found. 5 or 6 are known to have been sold. One came from Bill Shea of Ruptured Duck. One from Helmut Weitze. One from Barry Turk at eMedals. Some had no ribbon loops. Some had Imperial-style oval loops, as expected with Zimmerman RKs. At least one had a standard TR-style loop. All examples show signs of rust, melted solder and burning, but at least one was "restored" before selling. There is some evidence that more marked Zimmerman Ritterkreuze remain, as yet unsold.

--Burnt and bent Ritterkreuz parts: frames and a piece of core were sold with COA by Detlev Niemann as a lot. A core is offered as of this writing at eMedals.

--"Several" lower grades of the EK marked "20" This could be EK1s or even EK2s, of which no "20" marked examples are currently known (by me) to exist.

--Five Prinzen EKs. One was a 1914 EK1. One was a rare Prinzen 1939 EK2. The class and issue year of the other 3 are unknown at this writing.

--An uncut frame and a separate cast iron core for a 1914 Großkreuz.

--Assorted odds-and-ends: unfinished awards and decorations, an EK2 core, an uncut EK2 spange, c. 80lbs. of mostly unrecognizable rubble, etc etc.

I need more information about just what was discovered here. Please add what you know to this thread, and I can update this list if need be.

Authenticity:

The Zimmerman RKs, at least, are known to be identical to wartime manufactured examples - all markings, dimensions and die flaws are the same as known originals - and are therefore considered genuine. This goes a long way towards authenticating both the story and the other items offered with this story as provenance, but is not (in my view) decisive.

Additionally, the 1939 EK2 core's date-style from this hoard seems a perfect match to known Zimmerman 1939 EK1 core date-styles, offering further evidence that the hoard did indeed originate in the Zimmerman factory.

Please: weigh in on this, folks.

This find is not the one referred to as the "Russian Horde" as found in 1999, all the cased crosses and spanges were by B.H. Mayer (26) although I believe some crosses were unmarked they were said to be by Mayer. Good info on another similar though.

Regards, Ned.

[octavian]

Wow Ned! I had no idea you saw that many EK1's from the horde. Sounds like you did nicely for return on investment. Well played dude

[Chopperman]

Russian hoard unmarked Imperial BH Mayer

[Norm F]

Hi Guys,

Very interesting and a good topic since we often hear of the Russian Hoard but with no historical details. Already one inconsistency though -- I don't see why a German Infantry Division's award stock would include a 1914 EK1?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Chopperman]

Norm,
That is an interesting question that I can not answer.
If I remember correctly, I bought this cross from Barry at Emedals and
he got it from Detlav Niemann. I bought it because of the minty condition
and had no idea at that time what a "hoard" cross was.

[big ned]

This is an example of the 300 EK1's that were in the 1999 "Russian Horde". All were in identical cases, the later type with rectangular push button catch. Some were apparently unmarked, but the vast majority bore the PKZ number 26. Talking to a guy on another forum about this today, and he said NO EK1 spanges were found in the footlocker as I originally said I thought there were in my original post, only the cased EK's that varied only in condition due to storage, some being better than others.

So to clarify matters, the horde in question was ONLY of marked/unmarked Mayer design crosses in the exact type of case shown below, and no other.

Regards, Ned.