WW2 German U-boot Kriegsabzeichen

[HoundsTooth]

Hello All,
I'm new to this forum, and to collecting military memorabilia, so i'm a bit green to all of this!
I have a small collection of WW1+2 memorabilia - some British Mills bombs, Russian WW2 badges, Heer M42 helmet.

I'm thinking of purchasing a U-Boat badge but I understand that there are many replicas out there so I would welcome any comments on the attached pictures.
Do you guys think this is genuine? I know that some badges did not have a makers mark and some badges had vertical pins instead of horizontal.
I'd welcome any comments and thank you in advance.
Nick

[MAP]

I can start with some general observations. To me it looks like a Funcke & Bruninghaus zinc award. You can see the die flaw in upper left wing (a blob on the top right inner feather)

That said I do have a question on the catch. Does it open on the left or right?

If left. Then it would be considered a 1.38 Variation 3 (Webers classification system).

Now my concern.

1) Weber notes that there is the a possibility of these being post-war production (on original dies?)
2) Our member NormF (and friends) have created their own more up to date classification system. Both of the variations they have with round wire pins (type 6.1.3 and 6.1.4) have rectangular catch plates. The only difference between the two are whether they are right or left opening. They do not classify an example with a round base plate.

So given Webers questions on when they were made and Norm's system not including this type, I would stay away.

But I am only reciting what my reference material states. Best wait for other peoples view as well.

Here is one to compare to with a different pin set up (type 1.36 variation 1 unmarked).

U-boot Kriegsabzeichen

[rbminis]

So given Webers questions on when they were made and Norm's system not including this type, I would stay away.

I would also agree with Michael's assessment, I have not been able to find a match to this one yet.
Unless some of the other members give you a different opinion, I would stay away also.
Ralph.

[humble collector]

It's an odd badge indeed. The pin style is reminiscent of a Friedrich Orth style horizontal as opposed to vertical. However, the eagle and boat are not correct for a FO example.

[HoundsTooth]

First off I would like to thank MAP, rbminis and humble collector (and anyone else who replies) for your responses - it really is appreciated and I must say i'm impressed by your knowledge on this for sure!

I have a passion for WW2 history, but have only just started collecting and simply don't have the knowledge that other people have and it's difficult to know whether a piece may be genuine or not - especially with Third Reich awards such as this.

[rbminis]

I have removed the photos of the second badge.
Please start a separate thread for this other one.
Please remember to use the correct terminology.
The Use of German Terminology.
Ralph.

Please read this thread and you will understand why.
Uploading photos and posting multiple items.

[HoundsTooth]

Sorry! Thanks Ralph
I will start a new thread for the other badge (Kriegsabzeichen?) and do my best to use correct terminology.

[rbminis]

Sorry! Thanks Ralph
I will start a new thread for the other badge (Kriegsabzeichen?) and do my best to use correct terminology.

It's quite simple really, just go to the page I linked, find the name in English, and copy and paste the German name into your title.
Ralph.

[MAP]

First off I would like to thank MAP, rbminis and humble collector (and anyone else who replies) for your responses - it really is appreciated and I must say i'm impressed by your knowledge on this for sure!

I have a passion for WW2 history, but have only just started collecting and simply don't have the knowledge that other people have and it's difficult to know whether a piece may be genuine or not - especially with Third Reich awards such as this.

No need for thanks. I love researching and every time it's a learning experience for me as well to hone my skills.

Don't worry about being a Padewan (going with your Star Wars inspired Avatar name). We all have to start somewhere. You at least have the benefit of the services of this fine forum. Something most of us did not.

But you will truly only learn if you study yourself. So if you are just starting, pick an area you are interested in so you can focus. Then buy good reference books and study thread on the forum. When you find something you are interested in buying, spend the time studying and researching yourself, then post it on the forum for opinions with your own views as well (it's OK to be totally wrong LoL).

With this method, I can guarantee you that you will quickly become self sufficient to spot most (but not all) of the fakes your self

[Norm F]

Hi Guys,

As Michael said, it's a variant setup of the so-called "unmarked F&BL", which have the same obverse as the "L/56" marked versions but carry the round-wire setup and are never marked. They certainly show "wartime-compatible" construction and could be wartime manufactured, but any Lüdenscheid origin zincer bears the possibility of early post-war assembly.

As to the round base plate for the catch, the only reason it hasn't been included in the comprehensive U-boat classification table until now is I only had one example on record (attached), and my general rule for inclusion in the table is there has to have been more than one example apparent (i.e. I avoid "one-offs"). It didn't help that the one example I had seen was included in a grouping with a Deschler-marked envelope with a fake "Unterseeboot-Kriegsabzeichen" marking and an award certificate dated 1939 when this clearly wasn't an early wartime badge.

Interestingly, both these examples use a round base plate that's a slightly smaller diameter then that seen on the L/56 marked badges so it's not the same stock of hardware as the marked badges.

Now that this one appears, I'll go ahead an add it to the table of variants as UC# 6.1.5.

Best regards,
---Norm