Sorry, don't know what happened with the photo thing...……...second attempt ….
Sorry, don't know what happened with the photo thing...……...second attempt ….
The thankyou is for not giving up .... and reposting
This will become another 5 star thread !!
It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!!
One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C
“The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill
Well this is an interesting bayonet. One of the problems with a rare anomaly is there may be no other example to benchmark an opinion on. Did the Bahnschutzpolizei ever buy private purchase bayonets with clamshells in the Third Reich era? I don't know the answer to that question. Clearly they were issued combat K98 bayonets.
But can we dismiss it as impossible?
My first thoughts were a recent construction using mainly period parts. But I'm reasonably comfortable that it's not recently constructed (others may disagree) but here are my observations.;Firstly the grip eagle emblem seems to be a recent repro, fitted perhaps recently. But it may have been de-nazified post war.
The clamshell has some wear and patina, in balance with the rest of the bayonet. Appears to be yellow base metal, nickel plating worn on edges.
The green felt stopper under clamshell seems correct for age.
Good quality stag grips well fitted.
Importantly, the steel rivets appear undisturbed and patina and type correct for late Eickhorn.
There are casting flaws in the hilt, but this is seen in late production (war time) Police bayonets.
There is historical precedence for a Railway Protection Police clamshell. They exist in WW1 swords.
But I'm still not sure.
This will be the benchmark ( Pardon the punby Anderson
) of a good discussion as to why there are no other examples to have been found to this day.
1. Was this type a handful of " Gift knives" ?
2. Is this a Jim Attwood fake that made it through the cracks of time into the present and landed here on our forum?
3. How large were the Bahnschutz Police ?
My points are to promote further discussion
Best Larry
It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!!
One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C
“The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill
Larry your point 1 and 2 can not be ruled out, yet. Point 3, fairly large when you consider they were also guarding the railway network of occupied Europe.
An involved topic - as a supplement to what has already been presented I would like to add the following: We have a late TM on the blade combined with a mixed metals hilt assembly that appears to be copper based. Copper became a restricted material in 1935 for civilian items, but preexisting stocks were not confiscated instead they were gradually depleted with approximately 1937 when substitutes became more common. The rivets to me appear to be more hand made instead of factory, and artificial aging of steel is not that hard to do.
As for the Railway organization having a lethally armed component the fact of the matter is that in the immediate post WWI period with a lot of turmoil in Germany going on - it was the only civilian national force that existed. One that did purchase the Behörden model S.84/98 service bayonets. Railway security forces organized in two primary sectors one being the Railway Police, and the other Railway Protection that was equipped as more of a paramilitary-combat armed force. Something that happened long before Germany expanded outside its borders. And this is where it gets a little more interesting because while Himmler was successful with the Police component, for the Bahnschutz he was denied because the Railway administration fought back having good arguments that he could not overcome. Not one to be thwarted in his ambitions, in the middle of 1942 Himmler tried once again by modifying his demands.
So with that said, while on the surface this dress bayonet might appear to possibly be legitimate TR period (instead of 4th Reich) - I had to ask myself who was in charge and had the supposed wearer on his payroll? Was it the German Police or the German Railway System??? The bottom line for me being that after looking at this example along with the other factors, I’m going to have to go with my initial gut reaction that is not good. Best Regards, Fred
(PS: The above comments are substantially abbreviated.)
Thank you for the time and thought put into your responses Gentlemen, I wasn't expecting to create such an interesting debate on what it may or not be when posting. Given that I could find no other information about such a dagger it is testament to the quality of contributors on the forum that this item has not just been binned straight away as "fake" because it is unusual.
Your time and expertise is appreciated, given that I am also on a steep learning curve with this area of collecting.
kind regards
Tony
No worries Tony whether it be a debate or surgery the discussion is quite healthy and focused.
This thread is not finished yet and surely more will come out of it in the near future.
It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!!
One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C
“The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill
Tony, there is I think a learning curve for all of us. Over the years finding that online discussions can often provide the latest and best information that is available. Not that long ago the so-called in various books etc. the ”1st Model Railway daggers”. A topic discussed on this forum that was provided some legitimate period information from a very well thought of specialist, author, and forum member that IMO finally settled the matter (a "collectors legend" no such thing existed in the TR era). My point here being it was the forum that brought together the resources that was able to analyze a topic that had been disputed for years. Best Regards, Fred
PS: And as Larry said it might not be over, because discussions like this can be learning tools for both beginners and experienced old time collectors.
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