DKiS Urkunde for Berger: What do you think?

**Justin P** · 01-17-2010, 10:59 PM

Well schnellmann, I replied to your Bormann Thread. Never! gave you my Opinion On the signatures Originality, Never said I was a Expert! Again your Tone of replies are aggressive and Demanding!

I did not have the time to Look into the Bormann Signed Document, However Ive had Time to inform my Opinion on the DKIG You have posted. Its not a Document I would want in My Collection.

**Espenlaub Militaria** · 01-17-2010 10:59 PM

We also buy and trade your items and full collections!

**Adrian Stevenson** · 01-17-2010, 11:16 PM

I will add one comment here and it is not about the document.

I have cleaned up this thread and removed 12 posts from last night while I was not online. I will not tolerate insults and personal comments here! Stick to the subject in hand Gentlemen, I will not say this again.

Cheers, Ade.

Dietrich · 01-18-2010, 02:19 AM

by Woske

As you can see, all the above formal variants are professionally produced with care taken in the formation of the lettering. Some are ink written and some are typed, but none look amateurish. Now closely examine schnellmann’s piece and compare it with the care taken in production. His example displays uneven lettering especially in the formation of the name. The letters are not even level. The addition of the date does not centralize the wording and leaves it looking very unprofessional.
The rank is incorrect. On 21 June 1943, Berger was promoted to SS-Obergruppenführer und General der Waffen-SS. He received the DKiS for his work in the SS-Hauptamt for organization and recruitment in the Waffen-SS. It would be unthinkable to omit his full Waffen-SS rank. The rank of SS-Obergruppenführer on its own was an Allgemeine-SS rank and was never formally used on its own for Waffen-SS purposes.
Added to these faults is the use of silver printing, not impossible, but doubtful. I have not seen this before in many years of research. However, there’s always a first time.
I firmly believe that schnellmann’s document is a forgery and that is without the benefit of close examination, which, in my opinion, would add to the doubts. I also have some reservations about the ink stamp.
I am of the opinion that schnellmann honestly believes his document to be authentic and I am genuinely sorry to disagree.
Woske.

I was asked about my opinion today by the owner and was pointed to this thread. I can only fully agree with what "Woske" has stated. I saw this document about one year ago and shared the pictures with several of my esteemed collector friends. The unanimous opinion was that is is a fake. And that why this document never made it into my book.

Dietrich

schnellmann · 01-18-2010, 02:49 AM

Dietrich - Nice of you to join the forum, just so you can slam my certificate. I repeatedly asked you WHY you think it is a fake, but you refuse to answer. All the reason more why I will show it to an EXPERT. I am going to have the age approximated. What have I got to lose? As a fake it is worth - what - $50.00? But as a real Certificate apparantly it is worth $6000.00 OR MORE. Certainly more than the DKIS in cloth that I own...

Dietrich · 01-18-2010, 03:06 AM

I did not join to slam your document, I did join to confirm what was already said. You pointed me to this forum and I thought that in a discussion forum one can offer one's opinion?

I am sure you would have welcomed me with open arms and called me a true expert if I would have shared your opinion. I am known for my straight forwardness and openness. I have nothing to win or to lose other than my integrity and I have far better and more productive things to do than "slam" other people's stuff.

You should have told me that you accept only an answer that the document is "good" - not my honest opinion.

Good luck in finding an EXPERT who will certify your document.

Dietrich

schnellmann · 01-18-2010, 03:54 AM

I have already thanked you in a email to you for your honest opinion, so how can you be so critical of me? Just because I want to be 100% sure of a $50-vs- $6000 item, for God's sake! I think you should lighten up. I'll bet if it were YOUR Certificate you would want to be 100% sure. ANYBODY would.

Dietrich · 01-18-2010, 04:08 AM

I am not critical of you at all! You accused me of "slaming". Telling the truth is not slamming at all.
I honestly and truly hope for you that you will find an expert who's opinion you will trust.
However, regarding the "finding out" I have a different procedure. In the case I buy something where I am not very sure myself I ask collector friends before I buy, not after.

And please, let it be like that. I will disappear to the "Lord of the flies" again. I already regret this evening.

Dietrich

schnellmann · 01-18-2010, 04:24 AM

by Dietrich

I am not critical of you at all! You accused me of "slaming". Telling the truth is not slamming at all.
I honestly and truly hope for you that you will find an expert who's opinion you will trust.
However, regarding the "finding out" I have a different procedure. In the case I buy something where I am not very sure myself I ask collector friends before I buy, not after.

And please, let it be like that. I will disappear to the "Lord of the flies" again. I already regret this evening.

Dietrich

You and I both regret this evening, and last evening too. I was not even aware of the potential value of this document until I asked a guy who was asking about buying a DKG certificate what he thought it was worth. That is the reason I did not ask sooner. Greg Koepp, an ex- member of both forums was who I bought it, and a lot of the other crap that I have from. He really stuck it to me, I guess. Thank God the OT uniforms he sold me are good. And the DKIS... But I am still going to have the document's age determined, among other things. None of you have actually touched this document. It is old, and I don't think it was artifically aged.

**Steven M** · 01-18-2010, 04:30 AM

I believe that a call for an end to the insults was made by the Administrator, so I am a bit puzzled as to why it continues.

Twelve deleted postings should send a clear message that the tone needs to change...

schnellmann · 01-18-2010, 08:23 AM

by Justin

Well schnellmann, I replied to your Bormann Thread. Never! gave you my Opinion On the signatures Originality, Never said I was a Expert! Again your Tone of replies are aggressive and Demanding!

I did not have the time to Look into the Bormann Signed Document, However Ive had Time to inform my Opinion on the Deutsche Kreuz in Gold (SILVER) You have posted. Its not a Document I would want in My Collection.

I didn't mention your name. I didn't mean to offend you. There were several people who said my Bormann was a fraud - not you. Lighten up.