SS Totenkopf + Hitler youth Group

**ironcross13** · 08-14-2015, 06:48 PM

Hi guys im sure this group is original.

I would like some advice on its price as i'm unsure how much groups sell for.
But i know SS items carry a premium.

It really is a very nice group, HJ identity documents x 2, a HJ shooting book.Research from WaST in Berlin, a situation battle map from Russia, and the SS oath to Hitler.
EK1 that is engraved, EK2, IAB, BWB, SWB.

KR Martin

**Espenlaub Militaria** · 08-14-2015 06:48 PM

We also buy and trade your items and full collections!

**hucks216** · 08-14-2015, 08:37 PM

The short answer is such groups sell for whatever you paid for it, and considering the profit margins differ from dealer to dealer it could sell for less.

**ironcross13** · 08-14-2015, 08:44 PM

just wanted a rough guide on the how much it would be worth, as i'm looking to buy it,

Cheers

**hucks216** · 08-14-2015, 08:48 PM

The current owner only bought it this year so ask him for the receipt - the price won't have increased that much if at all.

At the end of the day these things aren't worth the price a dealer asks for due to the profit margins let alone when someone adds on their % as well. Is their any provenance that the EK actually belongs to the soldier or is it something that was engraved to an EK and added to the group? Unless you have cast iron proof that the EK medal was his and not one that was added to the set at some point then it won't be worth the asking price.

**ironcross13** · 08-14-2015, 09:20 PM

Thanks for the reply.

Yeah dealers prices are always high.
That's the thing there is no way to prove the EK1/2 or any of the other awards belong to the group, but i though the docs on there own might be worth a bit as they belong together.
then the awards would be worth a certain amount on there own

Cheers

**avenger** · 08-14-2015, 09:30 PM

by hucks216

Unless you have cast iron proof that the EK medal was his and not one that was added to the set at some point then it won't be worth the asking price.

I don't know anything about this set other than what was posted here, though wouldn't this also apply to something like an engraved dagger? Is the reason the EK1 engraving might be suspect because the EK1 isn't listed on the research, and because there's no soldbuch or wehrpass to confirm it?

Seems like engravings on daggers and swords get by without much if any provenance, so I'm not quite understanding why this would be held to a different standard, assuming the engraving style is all correct...

**hucks216** · 08-14-2015, 09:38 PM

by avenger

I don't know anything about this set other than what was posted here, though wouldn't this also apply to something like an engraved dagger? Is the reason the EK1 engraving might be suspect because the EK1 isn't listed on the research, and because there's no soldbuch or wehrpass to confirm it?

Seems like engravings on daggers and swords get by without much if any provenance, so I'm not quite understanding why this would be held to a different standard?

I'm not saying it is a suspect piece but pretty much what you have alluded to - such things are passed off as being part of a group when there is no back up evidence either way, be that an EK I, dagger or what-have-you. Such items need the provenance before being able to say it belongs to the group rather than it being added. And that goes for un-engraved medals as much as the engraved stuff. I remember a few years ago, a nice Sturmboot-Pionier EK II citation being sold on the WAF E-Stand for around 250 Euros. A couple of months later it was for sale on Beck Militaria but this time with an EK II medal that was being sold as being part of the citation and for a price of 700 Euros with the description that the two went together. No proof, and in that particular case a load of rubbish.

**ironcross13** · 08-14-2015, 09:49 PM

There is no way to prove the metal is from the group, its very easy to add medals that match.

thanks for the info

**avenger** · 08-14-2015, 09:52 PM

Okay, I understand where you're coming from now. I was thinking of the EK1 on its own, rather than from the point of view of the group like you're talking about. And you're right about any old non-descript medal in a set, and how that can be added at any time.

The research mentions a 1./SS-Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment 5 Totenkopf on 30/07/1944 (a couple weeks before the EK1 dating on the engraving), and also he was badly wounded I believe if I'm translating right. I wonder if that regiment was part of the 3 Panzer Division? The name matches the other documentation. If it's a period engraving, seems like it has a chance...

In any case, it's an interesting set.

**avenger** · 08-14-2015, 10:11 PM

Here's a closeup of the research, as you kind of have to zoom in on it:

If the authenticity of the engraving is not in question, the name on the EK1 matches the HJ books and other documentation. The rank on the engraving is mentioned in the research on 30/7/1944. And, if the unit from the research is tied to 3 Panzer Division, there doesn't seem to my admittedly novice understanding any reason to doubt the EK1 (if we don't doubt the research). I admit, a soldbuch or wehrpass is better, but this one doesn't seem completely random anyway.

Just my two cents on it, for what that's worth.