You're certainly more than free to believe as you wish and view museums and collectors by your own standards, but I, for one, do take exception at being called nonsensical and self-delusional. I do not see anything that has been said previously that merited a personal insult response such as this and I consider this absolutely uncalled for. 2 adults or more should certainly be able to debate varying viewpoints without resorting to name calling insults.
William
"Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."
Being of Jewish descent from my mothers side, I understand the position of Certain individuals who find offense in such items being sold. One could easily argue that those who are selling these items are profiting from others suffering. That said, I collect "holocaust" artifacts as many of you know, and not one family member has a problem with that. I find it of great importance that these items aren't forgotten, and they're better found within a private collection than the trash, IMO. This way, they're not discarded as so many have been in the past due to not being of current value or interest, or even fear of owning such a item; honestly, how many Jude stars can one museum really display, and in the future it will still be available to teach once the collection is broken up. I can't stress the importance of this.
I'll say it again, as I've stated in prior post several times; I don't understand why some feel ok to collect artifacts from the persecutors, yet not those of the persecuted. Someone ones compared; on the thread I just spoke of, grave robbers to collectors of any Jewish items of the Third Reich period. I don't feel that grave robbers, or even battle damaged items is a accurate comparison, and almost find That to be what is offensive. I guess one could argue battle damage items are probably from someone who pasted away, as well "holocaust" items, but, IMO, so would any other war item from that period, especially considering over 60 million people died during this war. With that said, to each their own, whether be what they collect or choice not to, or what opinions they hold for those who do.
I would also like to note that many of the collectors of Jewish artifacts and TR are jewish themselves. I was once told of a poll which suggested that here in the States as many as 40% of WWII collectors are actually Jewish. Several members, I won't say their names as I've never seen them state this, here are actually Jewish. Therefore, unless we are all some kind of self-hating race, maybe there is something more to the collecting of these items.
Purely speaking for myself, I collect for several reason, one being the German history is so intertwined into mine. With four grandfathers who fought in the war; two were step-grandfathers, one which was German-Jewish, and several family members who were either in concentration camps or perished once arriving at one, I find that it is almost a responsibility of mine to preserve these artifacts. Yes, the history is quite "dark" but it happened, and these items are a great tool to use to teach about it so that it hopefully doesn't happen again.
At the end of the day, this is undoubtably a hyper-sensitive subject that has no one right answer. Thus, if ebay doesn't want to sell these items anymore, by all means, don't. Honestly, they were all fake anyways. However, please don't tell me I am wrong for doing so, or call me some self hating Jew for collecting such items. I have many valid reasons for doing so, and considering my family history, right to do so, just as you have the right not to.
Additional note: My mothers stepfather who was a devout Jew, and highly respected Doctor within his community who also served as a Doctor in Europe during the Second World War collected not only "holocaust items", but also items of the Third Reich up to his last days on this earth. I am also told his collection was very impressive as well that his opinion of this topic was one and the same as mine.
Add: And yes, I Do feel I have a personal crusade to save these items. I think my family earned that when most were murdered during the war. In fact, that side of my family is quite small and such is contributed to the lose of so many during this time(they either lived in Poland or Germany). The ones who didn't pass away, usually men, ended up losing their minds, and never remarried or reproduced again.
An interesting subject and I for one see nothing wrong with collecting holocaust related items if they are done so in the right context ie... for the preservation of history and the historical events surrounding this dark time in human history and not as all ready stated for glorification of the events that took place.
If this type of memorabilia is to be banned from being sold on the internet or in this specific case E-bay what will be next ?
1- Holy items related to the persecution of Christians and or the Israelite's or say the holy crusades perchance ?
2- Items related to genocide ?
3- Items related to civil war ?
4- Items related to war crimes ?
5- Items related to the persecution of Soviet citizens during the reign of Stalin ?
6- Items related to the events surrounding 911
7- Items related to WW I and or WW II
These are only a few examples of what some might find as offensive and the list grows every single day as we live and breath we can not change history .
Is this an indication of things to come is are right to collect history and remember historical events in are past to be sanitized on a personal collecting level and or censored to the point that anything found offensive will only be aloud to be showed in controlled environments such as exhibitions and or museums ?
Just my thoughts and they are meant with the utmost respect .
Regards Mark K
I have to say that I agree with Wagriff here, not that I take it personally, as I do see some semblance of a partially rational undelying point, but the following quote is just nonsensical and really makes me wonder what kind of forum 4thskorpion is really referring to here:
Surely, the vast majority of topics on here showcase individual items and it is my experience that they are usually dissected intellectually at length in order to provide viewers, and oneself, with as much history and background as possible.For a start the forum images are most often just photos of part of a collection of "things" or just a "thing" with no accompanying academic research to provide any context for the "uneducated" online viewer, if education is the purpose of posting here
Of course, you should disregard a lot of "what is it worth" topics etc. that are indeed abuindant which naturally receive little response.
Please provide links to topics made by individuals posting in this topic in which they just display a bunch of "things" with no regard for what they really are or their history --- would be interesting... I can't really remember any overwhelming amount of such topics displaying this supposed lack of curiosity, background info and attempted further researchOr maybe we just hang around in different sections on this forum? What do I know...
There is, however, a section for Collection displays --- you must have been hanging around there a bit too much.. I guess.
That, said --- I have no real problem with other collectors collecting Holocaust related items. What I do take issue with, however, is this unnecessary moral policing as carried out by the media --- I call it hypocritical in light of these issues revolving around "dead" items, nothing really hurting no one, except if you are sensitive to the issue and strangely enough take it upon yourself to actively seek out that which offends you. Surely, there's gotta be more important issues for the media to focus on nowadays... this literally reeks of sensationalism.
Also, on the topic of this/these original typescript copy/copies of "Schindlers List" that was on ebay and those not having been taken down: why should they? What kind of a real life problem does such a sale pose to anyone? Once again, to me, this reeks of moral policing on behalf of one's own inner moral compass --- highly subjective at best and, to me, something that should be a non-issue in real life.
I personally belive in free trade so I do not see any point why it is not allowed to sell historical items? How can it offend someone? I do not collect Holocaust items but I understand that many collectors do and what is the wrong with it?
Let these guys sneer and mock at our outstanding, historical collections. I wonder if they would sneer at the value of some of them !by Wagriff
Nick
"In all my years as a soldier, I have never seen men fight so hard." - SS Obergruppenfuhrer Wilhelm Bittrich - Arnhem
Too late, Mark.....items from famous criminals and killers are prohibited and also anything from the Ku Klux Klan is not allowed...but you Can buy anything Japanese(They were Nice guys during the war apparently) as well as Italian Black Shirt Fascist items, Croatian Ustashi, Hungarian Arrow Cross,Romanian Iron Guard stuff, etc. but No ancient 2000 year old Roman bronze Spear heads. Also banned are Any gun parts, such as springs, clips, etc. And, bizarrely, no 1st Class Catholic Saint Relic(the tiny bone fragment or spot of blood or tissue is being treated as "dealing in Body parts"...) And the list goes on...
William
"Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."
Actually, the more things are valued, the most mocking they get. Some mint condition old comic books, for example, like the 1st Superman or Batman from the 1930's can be worth 2 or $300,000 dollars. The media has a field day laughing at this...
William
"Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."
William,
If you can point out anything I have written about you personally in my previous posts then I will happily retract and apologise for any offence. But I do not believe I have. I fully appreciate that you and I have some major differences of opinion I have never restored to name calling insults, maybe because of those differences you are reading what you want into my post(s).
If my opinions come across to you as personal to you that then this is your misinterpretation of my posts rather than my actual words and I cannot be held accountable for that. I admit I am an extremely opinionated person who likes to debate varying viewpoints and I fully respect others whose views differ from my own (well those within the framework of this forum's rules).
I would have sent this by PM but since you raised the subject of my opinions about museums and collectors being insulting then I thought a more public response to your post was in order, so I can reiterate that although I have aired my views as part of this debate it is in the spirit of cordiality and respect to all of those who hold a different view
I collect, therefore I am.
Nothing in science can explain how consciousness arose from matter.
Similar Threads
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks