New Helmet Pickups

[Good Pwny]

Nice helmets Russ! You must be running out of room with all these lids you've been collecting.

[oradour]

just noticed today that the net piece, on our M90 looks to be that of what is used on the West German M81/85's. I guess the Iraqi's picked up stuff from about everyone.Russ

The Iraqi's used a considerable number of ex-Bundeswehr helmets and nets ! I remember reading about and viewing photographs of the base of the "two crossed swords" gateway in Baghdad, where hundreds of helmets are welded together as a memorial to the IRAQ/IRAN war....a lot were German M1A1's !
Prost ! Steve.

[MySonsDad]

The Iraqi's used a considerable number of ex-Bundeswehr helmets and nets ! I remember reading about and viewing photographs of the base of the "two crossed swords" gateway in Baghdad, where hundreds of helmets are welded together as a memorial to the IRAQ/IRAN war....a lot were German M1A1's !
Prost ! Steve.

Yes Steve, I have seen this photo, I think here someplace on the forum. It was incredible to see the pile of helmets, a lot of Brit steel in the pile as well. What ever surpluse they could pick up for cheep was the name of the game I guess. Russ

[MySonsDad]

2) M60-62/85 - M-1A1 "modifiziert, Bodentruppenhelm": first shell type.Interior model 1981. The two old rivet holes of the former interior are sealed, three new rivets are set for the new 3-point chinstrap. Screw head on crown not visible. This is brought to standard M60/62 M85 (5 visible rivets) specification.
Prost ! Steve.

Steve, If possible can you better clarify this configuration from your earlier posting on the variations of the M1A1 M81/M85. From what I gather in the reading this makes referance to a reworked M1A1 that has the new M81 interior and 3 point chin strap however I am a bit confused as to what sheel this was suppose to be prior to change. Posting indicates 5 rivets on shell, which makes sense if the shell of origin was an M62 configuration however the designation indicates ic could also be a M60 configuration which would leave use with 9 rivets. If possibly, could you clear this up.

Thank you,

Russ

[oradour]

I believe it refers to the Model 60/62.....have a look here on the original french language site, you will need to use your google translate tool ! but the photographs in the timeline of the evolution of the M1A1 should make it clear..: World War Helmets - Casque Modell 1A1 :.
Prost ! Steve.

[MySonsDad]

I believe it refers to the Model 60/62.....have a look here on the original french language site, you will need to use your google translate tool ! but the photographs in the timeline of the evolution of the M1A1 should make it clear..: World War Helmets - Casque Modell 1A1 :.
Prost ! Steve.

Steve, thank you again for your help. I have refered to the Warld War Helmets site and still am a bit puzzled to the helmet configuration M60/62 M85 you stated but I think it makes little differance as I believe that as long as you consider any of the shell configuration of all the previous variations of liner configurations, you can assume any one of these can create a model variation for the next generation of liner type.

I think where my confusion is drawn is from the statement that the M60/62 M85 can be identifed with 5 visible rivets while in my mind it should have 9 (4 from previous liner, 2 from previous chin strap and 3 new for 3 point chin strap). Examination of the M60/62 M1A1 photos clarified for me the absence of the 4 liner rivets of the M60 liner configuration. This however raises the question, why even use the M60 in the designation as obviously this variation of the M1A1 was never fitted with the M60 liner types?

To me, it looks more like there are two distinct M62 M1A1 variations, one with a hole punched through the crown and the liner bold welded in place; and a second (the type designatied as M60/62) where the liner bolt is welded to the inside of the shell leaving the exterior of the crown smooth and without penitration.

Does this make any sense or am I still missing something?

Regards,

Russ

[oradour]

To me, it looks more like there are two distinct M62 M1A1 variations, one with a hole punched through the crown and the liner bold welded in place; and a second (the type designatied as M60/62) where the liner bolt is welded to the inside of the shell leaving the exterior of the crown smooth and without penitration. Regards, Russ

Russ..IMO the M60 and the M62 are obviously two separate helmet designs of the M1A1 family of helmets, the M60/62 designation would seem to be a "on the cusp" between the two...a maker varient ?...therefore I would think your prognosis has validation on the models you quote above. I have one M60 (first type), two M62's and one M85 in my collection, all original unmodified helmets.....so a hands on comparison, while desirable, is not possible....and actually proves that not all stocks were upgraded ! complicated eh !
Prost ! Steve.

[MySonsDad]

Russ..IMO the M60 and the M62 are obviously two separate helmet designs of the M1A1 family of helmets, the M60/62 designation would seem to be a "on the cusp" between the two...a maker varient ?...therefore I would think your prognosis has validation on the models you quote above.

Steve, In an attempt to try and bring a logical conclusion as to why the M60 disignation is given to a M1A1 shell that is void of liner rivet holes, could it be at all possible that there actually were M60 variant shells used and liner holes were weld filled? I know this was done with other helmet configurations. Just a thought. Russ

[MySonsDad]

I believe it refers to the Model 60/62.....have a look here on the original french language site, you will need to use your google translate tool ! but the photographs in the timeline of the evolution of the M1A1 should make it clear..: World War Helmets - Casque Modell 1A1 :.
Prost ! Steve.

Steve,

I was first going to send this to you in Private Message, as my post became very long and wordy, but then thought it best I post in the forum as others may be searching for the same answers as I am. So, here it goes!

I have been doing quite a bit of research, reading and physical comparison of the various Bundeswehr helmets and I do thank you for helping significantly with this process. I have finally got all of the helmet designations and liner sub-types sorted out, it took a minute and the confusion was solely the product of the various liner configurations/modifications receiving a sub ”M” designation, to the official model type, that did not correspond to the actual liner designation. Once that was realized it all became very simple and I now have all of the helmet designations and variations well documented.

However, (there is always a however) the various sources I have been referring to bring some ambiguity to variations of the actual M1A1 shell (hull) itself and I am hoping you might be able to shed a little light on my confusion.

First Type M1A1 Shell: I understand that the first M1A1 shells (a product of the M1A1 M60 configuration) were produced in Sweden and shortly after production of the M1A1 shell was assumed by Germany, using a higher quality steel but same exact shape. In my readings I understand this to be what is referred to as the “First Type” M1A1 shell or hull. (Some readings indicated that the Swedish produced shells were the first type and the subsequent German produced shells were the second type, but I have disregarded this accretion as it does not follow what I believe are more reliable sources.) It is my understanding that that First Type M1A1 shell was the shell type used on the M1A1 M60; M1A1 LL; and M1A1 M60/62 helmet configurations.

Second Type M1A1 Shell: Basically the same shell (hull) of the first type M1A1 but with a slightly different shape to the edges. It is my understanding that the Second Type M1A1 was used on the M1A1 M62” M1A1 M81; and M1A1 M85 helmet configurations (except M1A1 M85 that were re-fitted to earlier First Style hulls).

How am I doing so far?

All of the above is based on compiling various readings. On the assumption that I have properly identified which helmet model uses which shell type (First or Second type M1A1), my confusion begins when the physical comparison of the various models and shell types is made.

Using the World-War-Helmets.com web site (translated to English of course) you suggested as my reference, .: World War Helmets - Casque Modell 1A1 :. roughly 1/3 the way down the page a photographic and text descriptive comparison is provided for the two M1A1 shell types. I have used this to compare our three examples of M1A1 models and they absolutely do NOT coincide and in fact are just the opposite as stated on the WWH web site and other writings. Assuming my M1A1 LL is that of the first type shell (hull), it more accurately matches the examples given for the second type, as described on the WWH site. Our M1A1 M62, which I believe should be the second type shell (hull) more accurately matches the examples given for the first type, as described on the WWH site. To add another twist, our M1A1 M85 hull is significantly different from both of our other examples. Again, on the assumption that the M1A1 LL utilized the first type M1A1 shell (hull) no mention of the first type hull being much larger than the second type is ever made. This to me is a far easier way to ID the helmet shell.

Steve, is any of this making any sense to you and what am I missing? It seems that our M1A1 shell examples are just the opposite of what is described on the WWH web site. Also it appears that our M1A1 M85 utilizes a 3rd shell type unless the ½ inch difference in hull length (at the opening) is considered a normal difference in manufacturing tolerance?

Any insight or clarifications to our discoveries would be greatly appreciated. I am trying as hard as possible to accurately document these helmets in English so that nothing gets lost in translation and an accurate, comprehensive and easy to understand reference is available to others.

Thank you in advance,

Russ